We discussed in other threads "old" Tetenal's role as toll-manufacturer for film manufacturers. But there it was also pointed out that with the threat of a collaps, that finally took place, these clients had been looking for alternatives, including own manufacturing.
And we should not overlook that Tetenal is not the only player in the field of toll-blending and -packaging, not even in the photographic field. Their special competence in the past were custom solutions beyond just blending chemicals, as refill cartridges for minilabs. But this market is going down. There was a reason old Tetenal had added products for non-photographic markets to their production portfolio.
You mix up things.Did any of them find any? The recent C41 shortage suggests the answer was "no"-- and I know the pandemic was widely blamed, but the shortages were starting to be seen before we all went home for the spring. Who's making CD4 in Europe these days?
Where do you base this information on? All major firms in the photochemical field are meanwhile active in non-photographic fields too. From cosmetics and drugs to IT.Yes-- and by all accounts, those non-photographic markets were the cause of the bankruptcy.
I believe, we had these before.On Tetenal's site they announce the future : The developer chemicals in tablet form.
An effervescent tablet form of E6 and C41 developer chemicals would have many advantages. First of all, a tablet has an almost unlimited shelf life and requires extremely little storage space.
For home users with small darkrooms, this would alleviate storage space problems and eliminate wasted liquid chemicals that had "gone badly" between the development of one batch of films and the next. Most photographers now order online instead of trotting into their local store, and tablets have the advantage that they can ship much more cost-effectively.
For fans of mobile lab development boxes, what better way to bring your developer! Simply add water on site, no measurement of various components or worry about leaks along the way. In terms of environmental policy, the tablets would also be more responsible, as they reduce both the ship's space/weight and waste chemicals.
What do you think about it ?
then Tetenal is pretty much a keystone for our entire hobby, and we should all be encouraged by any new product announcements.
You seem to have been intent on discrediting this announcement by any means possible since it was posted-- this is the first "new" product announcement by a group that's trying to put the remains of the old Tetenal company back into profitable status.
I think you've misread my comments, if you believe that's my attitude.
No discouragement from my side, just poiting out that this could be a new product from catalog view but not an innovation. There is nothing wrong with it, after more than 100 years this is a mature market where genuine innovation is not neccesary and also very difficult to happen.
Where I see a potential disadvantage in tablets as opposed to single-use packets of powder or pouches/sachets of liquid is that additional materials have to be added to hold a tablet together and make it durable enough for handling and shipping.
I was dumbfounded by the hostility expressed in AgX's posts to something that at worst, wouldn't benefit him, but would benefit a number of amateur photographers.
Please (if that introductory wording is not already inappropriate to your mind) show me were in this thread I expressed hostility. And to whom.
What a regressive, depressive, attitude. Innovation should always be encouraged-- and even if revolution isn't reasonable, that's no reason to dismiss evolution. We have technology undreamed of 50 years ago, let alone 100, so why not improve existing products?
First, take a deeeeep breath and relax. On my side, I am going to ignore the first words of your answer...
It is not about reasonability or convenience, there is no money anywhere in film industry for proper research. Not now, not yesterday, but since many years (20 at least). They have enough surviving in the digital era of photography. But we are also very lucky, the products and processes are so mature after a journey of over a century that innovation is not mandatory. We live nowdays with what we got until late 1990's and it is fairly acceptable in perspective of how dramatically was the film photography fall. Could be better but it could be also worse, much worse.
All new products we see today are normally things from the past reintroduced again, sometimes by new companies (even with old names) trying to find their place in this small market. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not, it is on the contrary a sign of good health of the market that we should encourage. But call it "inniative", not "innovation" or "evolution".
I hope that my point is now more clear.
So true !Sedans and compacts are more fun to drive, and more fuel efficient, but they "aren't where the money is", so everyone (especially in the USA) drives SUV's.
I totally agree with you !Well, you had to make up a word to make your point, so it's kind of suspect-- but my attitude is that innovation is the only thing that's going to keep film viable. No one's making shutters any longer, and I think Rodenstock is the only large-format lens manufacturer still around. Medium format lenses have gone the way of medium format (either gone, or insanely expensive), and in the case of this thread, most developing processes (especially for color) are based on large scale-- and that scale simply doesn't exist any longer. The article I referenced mentions that apparently Kodak owns two shuttered plants-- but they're designed for such large volumes that the only way to operate them profitably is to completely tear them down and start over. Tetenal, in theory, has a history of working with thousands of units, rather than millions, and hopefully, will be better positioned to profit in the new order.
Take Kodachrome-- Expensive to make, expensive to develop, and as I understand it, involves a number of highly toxic chemicals. If someone came up with a process for manufacturing a film that looked close enough to Kodachrome, and announced it tomorrow, it would be global headline news. Fuji and Kodak have both reintroduced films that were previously discontinued, and in both cases, that was only possible by improving the existing technology.
Since the 1990's, we have made gains in pretty much every aspect of manufacturing-- saying those improvements shouldn't be applied not just to update existing products, but to reimagine past, or existing products, is just silly.
Their special competence in the past were custom solutions beyond just blending chemicals, as refill cartridges for minilabs. But this market is going down. There was a reason old Tetenal had added products for non-photographic markets to their production portfolio.
Concerning Tetenal as firm, I predicted their collaps as likely when a self-acclaimed industry expert here at Apug called the insolvency and its deep effects just a formality and foresaw instead Tetenal arising stronger.
It is not about reasonability or convenience, there is no money anywhere in film industry for proper research. Not now, not yesterday, but since many years (20 at least).
All new products we see today are normally things from the past reintroduced again,
No one's making shutters any longer,
......and in the case of this thread, most developing processes (especially for color) are based on large scale-- and that scale simply doesn't exist any longer.
That is fortunately completely wrong: There has been lots of research and new products in the film photo industry in the last twenty years:
- Kodak and Fuji have introduced (in total) more than 10 completely new film emulsions, and also several completely new RA-4 type photo papers in the last 20 years, some of them just lately
- Ilford has introduced Kentmere 100 and 400 as new products, and also several new photo papers during that time frame
- Foma has introduced new products
- ADOX has also introduced several new film and photo chemistry products, and quite a lot of R&D was necessary for these products as well.
That is fortunately also wrong: The new products mentioned above have all been new, and were not 'only' reintroduced former products.
Just some examples from our company:
- our Speed-Boost technology is new, has never been used in the market before
- our innovative CAPTURA dust-binding technology is completely new
- the chemistry for our new, soon-to-come ADOX SCALA BW reversal kit is completely new using a totally new, much more environmentally and user friendly approach
- our long R&D work on Polywarmtone has the aim to come as close to original Polywarmtone as possible, and even surpass it in some parameters; to get there a complete new reformulation with different raw materials has been necessary (as lots of former raw materials are not available anymore)
- new bottles with much better oxygen diffusion protection.
And of course several improvements on existing products.
ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.
Ok, even I have some comments about what "completely new" means (Is Fuji 160 NS completely new compared to 160 NPS? Does a new base make a completely new paper?),
Fortunately not true: Millions of shutters are produced every year. And shutters can be used for digital and film cameras in the same way.
Let's have a look at the really new film emulsions (which needed lots of R&D) in the last 20 years:
Kodak:
- Ektachrome E100G and 100GX
- Portra second generation (160 NC / VC, 400 NC / VC, 800)
- TMY-2
- Ektar 100
- Portra third generation (160 and 400)
- Ektachrome E100
Fujifilm:
- Velvia 100F
- Astia 100F
- Sensia III
- Velvia 100
- Provia 400X
- Velvia 50 (RVP 50) (new raw materials needed)
- instax BW
- Acros II.
And both Kodak and especially Fujifilm designed several new emulsions for their RA-4 paper line. E.g. Fujifilm special papers for photo books, and just recently (Photokina 2018) the new 'Maxima' paper as highest quality paper for exhibitions and archives, with long term stability of more than 100 years. Some years ago Fujifilm has made an official statement that they are increasing their R&D efforts in that market segment. In the years after that new papers have been introduced.
Ilford:
- Kentmere 100 and 400
- Direct Positive Paper
- Multigrade FB Classic
- Multigrade RC V
Foma:
- Fomapan 320 Soft
- Foma Retrobrom
The Impossible Project / Polaroid:
- several new, improved versions of their films
- new i-type film
- two new i-type cameras.
InovisCoat:
- three new film emulsions as OEM manufacturer for branding companies.
And concerning ADOX please see the posting above.
This list is certainly not fully complete, but as you can easily see, quite a lot of really new emulsions / products had been introduced in the last two decades. And we expect more to come in the next years.
ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.
But isn't it great when you lose the battle, but the result is actually good news?I surrender. Consider my butt kicked...
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