Tetenal C41 vs Kodak

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2011

The Kodak developer can indeed develop more rolls of film than stated above!

Kodak gives a table that shows how to increase development time as the number of rolls processed increases. I have posted that here before and directed people to the Kodak web page that shows it.

PE

brucemuir · Oct 1, 2011

Athiril said:
Flexicolor SM is a non-replenished process for 'small tank' usage.

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/business/retailPhoto/products/chemicals/PF3_1067.pdf

Looks like it can be used for minilab or small tank.

Athiril · Oct 1, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
The Kodak developer can indeed develop more rolls of film than stated above!

Kodak gives a table that shows how to increase development time as the number of rolls processed increases. I have posted that here before and directed people to the Kodak web page that shows it.

PE

This kinda things need to be stickied.. anyway found it
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The table you posted shows a total of 6 135-36 rolls before having to discard it, and a time change at every 2 rolls, vs the 4 rolls without a time change in the Kodak manual.

But is the table you posted for 1 litre or for 473mL as in the second attachment?

edit: Managed to find my old Tetenal manual, it gives:

1-4 films: 3m 15s (congruent with Z-131 #3 about capacity).
5-8 films: 3m 30s
9-12 films: 3m 45s
13-16 films: 4m 00s

The second 2 times line up (basically) with the given chart you attached, Tetenal goes further to specify a 4 minute time as well, which is after the point of the table for flexicolor you gave says to discard. If the the chart attached is for 473 mL (close to 500mL), then it's basically identical to whats in the Tetenal manual, and I guess that the 4 minute times would work as well (at least as well as they do with Tetenal).

1 litre of flexicolor replenisher turns into 1.163 litres of tank solution, given up to 3m 45s times, that capacity is then ~14 roll/litre of replenisher, or 18-19 films for the 4m time.

Where as 1 litre of replenisher, can add capacity of 13-20 rolls (depending on the film used), but flexicolor LORR replenisher, has double that capacity, but the unreplenished capacity according to Z-131 #3 is the same as regular flexicolor iirc.

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2011

Here is the data sheet: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf

The times I gave in that other post are for the recommended tank volume as far as I can tell. It is a bit ambiguous. The other kit that you describe Dan, is indicative of the volume so I would follow that for times.

PE

Athiril · Oct 1, 2011

The chart in the post I linked above.. the second attachment is for 473mL (recommended tank volume), so I can only assume the first attachment is talking about the same volume, as you say as far as you can tell that it is.

The tetenal values are for 1 litre. The values in Z-131 #3 are for 4 films with no time adjustment, and says to be discarded after that, which is the point you'd make a time adjustment I'd guess, your chart makes time adjustment to 3m 29s after 2 films, while tetenal also has no time adjustment until after 4 films.

If you take that into consideration and compare them all as 1 litre vs 'recommended tank volume', they're all saying the same thing. Well apart from Z-131 not giving time adjustments, just to discard.

Though I find it odd that Z-131 gives less 120 rolls before discarding, when the area is almost the same as 36mm 36exp, with 120 having slightly less area, and 35mm 36exp having greater replenishment.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 1, 2011

It is often unwise to post on a thread before reading the preceding messages, however I found the image quality of my C-41 film improved when I began to use the developer within or near to the capacities stated by Kodak; meaning that I now process three 120 films to 1 litre of developer. Others have stated they have achieved excellent results assuming at least double that capacity, so to what extent is this a case of "your milage may vary"?

Tom

madgardener · Oct 1, 2011

hpulley said:
Fuji 800 is just grainy. Have you had any processed elsewhere? That film at pro labs is also grainy as heck, especially if you underexpose it. If you want high speed color film get new Portra 400 and shoot it at 400, 800 or 1600 and do push processing at 800 or 1600. Works great, much less grain.

That sounds like a lot of agitation. My kit's instructions says 5s every 30s. Not sure if that will accentuate the grain but the instructions also mention that a magenta cast may be caused by developer temperature too high or over-vigorous agitation so I would try just 5s every 30s (not longer at the beginning).

For a test, I sent in a couple rolls to York photo processing and when they came back, yes, there was some grain, but not as much as my home processed film. Thank you for the tip on agitation, I was using the agitation on an instruction sheet for black and white film, that I got when I took a photo class. I downloaded the full instruction sheet from Freestyle and, guess what? The magenta seems to have been caused by over agitation. Lesson learned!!
I'm still wondering about the grain. I wonder if that was from over agitation as well. OH well, I will figure it out.

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2011

Common causes of grain are over development, extreme agitation, improper bleaching and improper fixing. Washing hurts a bit too!

PE

darkroom_rookie · Oct 2, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Common causes of grain are over development, extreme agitation, improper bleaching and improper fixing. Washing hurts a bit too!

OK, forgive another obvious question, but does it all mean that reduction of grain is possible if C-41 film is overexposed, underdeveloped, agitated minimally and bleached and fixed generously in properly replenished bleach & fixer? What is the best way to wash color film?

perkeleellinen · Oct 2, 2011

madgardener said:
I realize 800 speed film is going to be a little grain, but this reminded me of the old Disc film, it was that bad.

hpulley said:
Fuji 800 is just grainy. [...] That film at pro labs is also grainy as heck,

I just wanted to add that Fuji 800 isn't that grainy and if the picture looks like disc film, I'd say the problem is not the 800 speed by itself. This is Fuji 800:

Photo Engineer · Oct 2, 2011

darkroom_rookie said:
OK, forgive another obvious question, but does it all mean that reduction of grain is possible if C-41 film is overexposed, underdeveloped, agitated minimally and bleached and fixed generously in properly replenished bleach & fixer? What is the best way to wash color film?

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking here. C41 film, properly exposed should have low grain. This is normal. If you underexpose, you will still get good grain and you don't need to push it. I have exposed Portra VC 160 to 200 and 400 with good results and no push. I have exposed it at 50 and 25 as well with no push. In fact, that is rather normal and within the specs of the film.

Kodak gives development times for those who wish to push their films. I believe it is in the URL that I referenced in a post yesterday. You may want to check it out.

OTOH, pushing or pulling does affect grain and bad bleaching or fixing will affect grain. The bad bleach and fix problem can be eliminated by re-bleaching, washing, fixing and then using the final rinse. This removes the excess silver left by the bad bleach and this is what causes higher grain in a bad process.

PE

madgardener · Oct 3, 2011

perkeleellinen said:
I just wanted to add that Fuji 800 isn't that grainy and if the picture looks like disc film, I'd say the problem is not the 800 speed by itself. This is Fuji 800:

And that's what my pictures look like when they came back from the commercial mail photo processor.

From what I have been reading on here, the problem wasn't the Unicolor kit, it was me.

For what its worth, I should be getting a new Digibase part "C" developer from Freestyle today. I'm looking forward to trying it and see how it works. My biggest issue is the temperature control and it appears that I can use lower temperatures with the Digibase kit. I won't go on about it because its not the purpose of this thread. However I have a couple questions about the Tetenal/Unicolor/Jobo kits. First one is: Are they all the same kit from the same manufacturer? The second one has to do with archivability: does the aforementioned kit have a lower archive rating compared to the non "blix" kits?

Thanks

darkroom_rookie · Oct 4, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
(...) pushing or pulling does affect grain (...)

PE, this is exactly what I was wondering about. Which is a safer way to pull? Shortened developing time at 37.8 deg.C, recommended 3'15" but lower temperature or shortened time AND lower temperature? Is it in any way dependent on format or a type of tank (stainless vs. Jobo Expert drum)? Thanks.
d_rookie

Photo Engineer · Oct 4, 2011

DO NOT CHANGE TEMPERATURE!!! Use time only to push or pull.

But, that said, I never push or pull if the difference is within 1 - 2 stops over or 1 stop under.

PE

Tetenal C41 vs Kodak

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