Tetenal C41 developer at 86f (30c in Europe)

chorleyjeff · Aug 26, 2007

The heating element (re used Nova unit) in the water bath I used to keep chemicals at 100f has broken and I can't find a replacement to keep the water at 100/102f. Tetenal give alternative times for chemicals at 86f and aquarium heaters can maintain that temp. so that seems a reasonable way to go. But are the results at 86f as good as 100f? Any observations from practical experience would be welcome please.
Thanks
Jeff

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2007

At lower temperatures, even with longer times, the cyan layer tends to be underdeveloped or the yellow layer tends to be overdeveloped, or both.

This leads to crossover and color problems. I have tried to compensate and fix the problem, but it is there nonetheless and is caused by diffusion. And, since each color film has a different thickness, this can vary from film to film. The color films were all balanced for 100F in the 'real' C-41 process.

PE

Nick Zentena · Aug 26, 2007

Look around. You should be able to find an aquarium heater that maintains the right temp.

poutnik · Aug 26, 2007

Nick, I was unable to locate heaters that are calibrated above 31°C (both in stone shops and in online shops here in middle Europe), and believe me I have tried...

Akki14 · Aug 26, 2007

Large tank of water = less temperature fluctuation. Just make sure the chemicals are at the right temperature before you start and they should stay warm long enough to get through the development process... or at least this is how I've been developing my own with the tetenal kit and no fancysmancy processor.

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2007

Start at higher than 100F, say 104 and let the temperature drift downwards so that the average temperature over the 3.25 minutes development time is 100F. This will work quite well. Use an initial prewet at 100 F.

The bleach, fix, stab/final rinse and washes can be as low as 85 degrees as long as you increase the time and don't overly shock the film as to cause reticulation.

PE

poutnik · Aug 26, 2007

That is the way I do it. Start at around 40 or 39°C, keep the whole thing in a tub and let the temperature drop. It will end at around 37 or 36°C, and the results are very good (at least to my eyes) - I'll try to post a photo in my gallery (past date Fuji NPH 400 developed in Amaloco K-54 developer - it's a C-41 developer).

pentaxuser · Aug 26, 2007

chorleyjeff said:
The heating element (re used Nova unit) in the water bath I used to keep chemicals at 100f has broken and I can't find a replacement to keep the water at 100/102f. Tetenal give alternative times for chemicals at 86f and aquarium heaters can maintain that temp. so that seems a reasonable way to go. But are the results at 86f as good as 100f? Any observations from practical experience would be welcome please.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff. Can't help with answers to lower temp and anyway others have done so but did you notice recently that Tim Rudman mentioned that he had a hardly used Nova which he was willing to dispose of for a reasonable offer?

He was inviting a PM from interested parties. Not posted in the for sale area so can;t say if it's now gone. Just a thought.

pentaxuser

Nick Zentena · Aug 26, 2007

poutnik said:
Nick, I was unable to locate heaters that are calibrated above 31°C (both in stone shops and in online shops here in middle Europe), and believe me I have tried...

It's not Europe

http://www.wonbrothers.com/product/heater/d58.htm

But that's rated to 40C. Plus

http://www.wonbrothers.com/product/heater/1000lcd.htm

I have an older smaller version like that one. It's not rated for 100F but it is adjustable. You're supposed to adjusted it so the dial reads accurately. I adjusted it so it runs a little warmer.

Unless the EU limits these things?

chorleyjeff · Aug 26, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
Look around. You should be able to find an aquarium heater that maintains the right temp.

Have tried internet searches and the max. sustained temp. I can find is 32c.
I suppose that if I had the know how I could rig up an immerasion heater and thermostat but water + electricity + me is a bit risky!
Cheers
Jeff

Discpad · Aug 26, 2007

Get a used in-tank heater/agitator on eBay -- Essentially an oversized aquarium heater. That's what I did when the heater element in my Jobo ATL-3 went tits-up.

Search the Business & Industrial section of eBay for "water bath"

chorleyjeff · Aug 26, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
At lower temperatures, even with longer times, the cyan layer tends to be underdeveloped or the yellow layer tends to be overdeveloped, or both.

This leads to crossover and color problems. I have tried to compensate and fix the problem, but it is there nonetheless and is caused by diffusion. And, since each color film has a different thickness, this can vary from film to film. The color films were all balanced for 100F in the 'real' C-41 process.

PE

Thanks for the info.
That's what I thought might be the case.
Cheers
Jeff

chorleyjeff · Aug 26, 2007

Thanks everyone.
Right now I'll go for the simple option of water bath at about 104f but investigate other suggestions in the next few days.
Cheers
Jeff

Markus B · Aug 26, 2007

The heaters from Aquatic Nature can be set to a temperature between 11°C and 39°C with an accuracy of +/1°C. At least ackording to themselves.
http://www.aquatic-nature.be/2eng_mp-heater.html

Fotohuis · Aug 29, 2007

If you're looking on industrial temperature controllers you can see a wide range of possibilities.
But these type of controllers are not cheap anymore. As thermo sensor in most cases you can use a PT100 which can be very accurate.

When using two aquarium heaters you can build at least the same specs Jobo is doing but working with heaters in a water bath needs knowledge of electronics and electrical safety because the combination can be very dangerous.

Picking up a TBE-2 will bring you within the C41 specification and the Amaloco K50/K54 kit has even some wider tolerance. (+0,5 -/- 1). For blix and stabilisation you need at least 35 degrees C. Going real down in temperature with the C41 developer will cause color shift like PE has explained.

The trick is to keep the heating element and PT sensor free of carbonates because otherwise they will end in overheating just like your home wash machinery. For these water baths there is anti-bacteria chemical available also to prevent damage on the heating element which is based on phosphoric acid.

Raphael · Sep 5, 2007

How to warm up to 38°C

Hello everyone,

Jeff and Mr Poutnik,

Just to share my experience and some thoughts :

I am just fully in the problem, because I would try E6 process in the next days, and following friend's advices, don't want to rely on my old CPA thermostat to keep water at 38°C (100°F for whose who are fond of imperial units )

I was unable, too, to find an heater with settings higher than 32°C. Then I dissociate the problem, and first search a "universal thermostat", which is able to switch on or off an external (sector powered) heating element, according to a precise setting. It's look like an industrial process controler, but as noted above, they are not precisely cheap, even on Ebay.

It was hard to find, but I managed it, and find an Ebay shop in Germany who sell a such thing, with an external term probe, and setting from 0°C to 100°C ! The price is not quite cheap, but reasonable to me (about 35.00), given the services done.

I don't know if it's OK to post here a link directly to the shop (and I think that some other shops sell the same device), but I can do it if someone asks, on this thread, or in a private mail.

CAVEAT : I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know if the gizmo is working well and is precise above all.

My problem is now about... finding a simple dumb heating element, which I can plug in the Universal Thermostat. There is several options then :

- Canibalize a new thermostated fish tank heater, with trying to by-pass the built-in thermostat switch.

- Use an heating element from a washing machine or something, and tinkering it.

The first two options are a little risky, it is better to keep water and power lines well separated

- Try to find an heating element which is not too expensive, an old dumb fish tank heater that it's not totally destroyed at a garage sale, for example.
I am thinking too about an heating element for a PCB etching machine, which is designed to use an external thermostat, and can be found in hobby electronic part shops, at various price.

Any comments or advice welcomed, of course.

Best regards,

Raphael

Roger Hicks · Sep 5, 2007

Nova sells replacement heaters. Or did last time I checked.

chorleyjeff · Sep 6, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Nova sells replacement heaters. Or did last time I checked.

They sell heaters for £40 plus P&P. Took patience but eventually their web site came up with the info.

Cheers

Jeff

Raphael · Sep 11, 2007

Hello all,

Alessandro Serrao said:
I confirm this: it's impossible to find an aquarium heater that is capable to mantain 38°C at a reasonable price.

Of course, because I think 38°C will be deadly for almost any fish species
But you can use a separate thermostat to control a simple (non-thermostated) water heater.

Here is a link (for a iron perchloride heater) :
http://www.newlongtain.com/shop/pro...ge=en&osCsid=f81daa15d2569439565ed8f2636e679e

It's to everyone to see if the added costs of separate thermostat + heater (total about 50,00) stays in the "reasonable" price zone.

Best regards,

Raphael

Raphael · Sep 11, 2007

Alessandro Serrao said:
That is a heater to warm the ferric perchloride to make pcb?
Interesting.

Yes, (sorry I didn't remember how "perchlorure de fer" is said in English)
In fact, it is sold as remplacement part for a vertical etching PCB machine.
I think it can heat liquids up to 50°C.

sbandone · Sep 19, 2007

I developed Fuji 400NPH for a while at 86F and found a green cast in the shadows in the finished prints. I spoke to Fuji and Tetenal about it and was recommended to revert to 100C processing at the standard time. Since doing so the green cast disappeared. Nova sell replacement heaters for their processors- you should contact them

Tetenal C41 developer at 86f (30c in Europe)

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