Testing Outdated Paper

Merg Ross · Oct 16, 2013

Is there an accepted way (other than the obvious) for testing outdated paper. I have 100 sheets of 10 year-old 16x20 Ilford Multigrade recently discovered in my darkroom --- also a 2% solution of benzotriazole available.

Thanks for any suggestions.
Merg

www.mergross.com

Rick A · Oct 16, 2013

Just the obvious. I cut old paper into strips and put one strip into developer and one into fixer. After my normal developing time I stop and fix the developed strip and compare to the strip that is fixed only. I use red safe light for this procedure.

dasBlute · Oct 17, 2013

... and so what would this tell you?

when I've used old paper, I get an increased base+fog i.e. I cannot get any 'whites' only some low level grey
as if the paper were heavily pre-flashed. So, my question is, what to do with this information? Can you quantify
the B+F and use that to reduce exposer/developement?

Or is it more like: 'nope, ain't gonna use that because it's not worth the effort' ? [which was my eventual decision]

-Tim

Bill Burk · Oct 17, 2013

I'd make step wedge exposures at each grade filter on this paper and some fresh (control) paper and develop normally.

If you can't get white, then I'd make another set of step wedge exposures and develop with a restrainer... (on hand, I've got only Potassium Bromide so that's what I'd use)

Molli · Oct 17, 2013

Wow, I am so sloppy and unscientific when testing papers. I just print a negative that I kind of like which I know prints easily with a full range of tones. Generally I prefer to use a negative with more than the usual amount of contrast just so I can see how well the white and black print. If there's any fog, I throw in 2% Benzotriazole, a few millilitres at a time until the whites print cleanly. That's it. No quantifying level of fog; but I do keep note of how much Benzotriazole I've used for any particular paper and if the paper required more/less exposure than "usual" and more/less development.

Newt_on_Swings · Oct 17, 2013

I use Rick's method to test, its the easiest way to see if any fogging is apparent. Though I prefer to do it without any safelights on, just to remove another potential variable. If there is fog, and depending on how much, you can try restrainers to keep the whites. I use Potassium Bromide (KBr) as its pretty cheap. mix with water to create a 10% solution and add to a developer of your choice. Increase the concentration until you can get whites. Sometimes if the paper is to far gone this will not work even if you add a ton of KBr.

dasBlute · Oct 17, 2013

Gee, that sounds pretty scientific to me... [empirical method, keeping notes...] thanks for the explanation

Molli said:
Wow, I am so sloppy and unscientific when testing papers. I just print a negative that I kind of like which I know prints easily with a full range of tones. Generally I prefer to use a negative with more than the usual amount of contrast just so I can see how well the white and black print. If there's any fog, I throw in 2% Benzotriazole, a few millilitres at a time until the whites print cleanly. That's it. No quantifying level of fog; but I do keep note of how much Benzotriazole I've used for any particular paper and if the paper required more/less exposure than "usual" and more/less development.

thanks also to silveror0 for the very detailed example, well worth trying...

Ian Grant · Oct 17, 2013

There's a good chance it'll be OK, Ilford reckon that their papers last at least 7 years if stored well, no extremes of heat/damp etc.

In my own experience it's unlikely there's any base fogging with 10 year old Multigrade, it may have slowed a little and have a very slight drop in contrast. To test for base fog just process a small piece for your normal dev time (unexposed) and compare to a piece unexposed/undeveloped but fixed.

If there's a slight drop in contrast you could use a more contrasty developer, like the Part B of Dr Beers, I used to use ID-14 an Ilford contrast developer.

I had a big clear out 3 years ago and tested quite a few boxes & rolls of old paper and only the warm-tone papers had deteriorated beyond being remotely useable, all the plain Bromide papers were fine some from the 1960's sloww, maybe dropped a grade none had base fog, the early Multigrade papers Kodak & Ilford had dropped contrast slightly but they were well over 10 years old.

So just give some a try.

Ian

ChuckP · Oct 17, 2013

I also use Rick's method. It works to show major fogging problems. But I suppose Molli's method is more accurate as it shows paper fog problems that are below the visual tone threshold. Like what happens when you flash paper to just below the point a tone is seen. I haven't seen visible fog on my old Gallerie. Maybe a slight loss of contrast.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 17, 2013

I have some ILFORD MGWT RC Gloss which is about 10 years old and shows significant base fog, to the point of only being usable for contact sheets etc.

Tom

Marco Buonocore · Oct 17, 2013

My method for testing paper uses a Stouffer projection test wedge. I compare my results to new Ilford Multigrade IV - my standard paper.

So, let's say brand new IMGIV has 14 steps between black and white at grade 2 on a step wedge. If I test some old Kodak Elite and it has 17 steps between black and white, I can conclusively say that it is less contrasty than IMGIV grade 2. I will then pick my negatives accordingly.

I do this test for both grade 2 and grade 5, if it's a variable contrast paper. I find that what suffers most with old paper is the contrast. So while an old box of Agfa MCC111 may have 14 steps at grade 2, it may only have 12 steps at grade 5. So it's useable, absolutely, but not for certain negs. It wouldn't be useful for split grade printing, as there is no real "high end" to it.

I find this manner of testing much more useful than just testing to see if there's base fog. I see a lot of people struggling with old, albeit unfogged, paper. They struggle to get any contrast out of it, because it simply isn't there. If you're aware of the constrast of a paper, you can successfully match a negative to a paper and get great results.

I attach the step wedge prints to each box of paper (i've got mountains of old paper!) and think of them as a fingerprint, or DNA. I use them for toning tests, etc... The projection step wedge is one of the most useful things I have in the darkroom.

Some other tips I might suggest are:

- note whether the paper is graded or variable contrast, and whether the paper has a white or cream base.
- don't over develop the paper; keep development times to an absolute minimum.
- don't compare paper base to Ilford Mutligrade; it's such a bright paper base that everything seems muddy next to it. I liken in to Hollywood whitened teeth.
- if all else fails, save the paper for lith printing.

Good luck!

Ian Grant · Oct 17, 2013

Tom Kershaw said:
A have some ILFORD MGWT RC Gloss which is about 10 years old and shows significant base fog, to the point of only being usable for contact sheets etc.

Tom

Warm tone papers don't keep as well, not since the cadmium was removed which was before Ilford introduced their current Warm tone range.

Ian

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 17, 2013

It doesn't necessarily answer your question regarding testing, but I have a fair bit of outdated paper in my darkroom that I'm slowly using up.

My method is to give the print just a hair more exposure, and after the print is developed, fixed, and washed, I use a pot ferri bleach and bleach back the fog until it is near paper white. I use a fairly dilute bleach, so that things don't happen too quickly.
It makes for a pretty nice print, and good enough where the difference compared to a print on fresh paper is pretty minimal.
The slightly lower contrast of the paper has to be accounted for.

Afterward I wash, fix again, wash, and then either dry the print or commence with toning in normal order.

I can't stand seeing paper go to waste.

Hope this helps a little.

Vaughn · Oct 17, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
It doesn't necessarily answer your question regarding testing, but I have a fair bit of outdated paper in my darkroom that I'm slowly using up.

My method is to give the print just a hair more exposure, and after the print is developed, fixed, and washed, I use a pot ferri bleach and bleach back the fog until it is near paper white. I use a fairly dilute bleach, so that things don't happen too quickly.
It makes for a pretty nice print, and good enough where the difference compared to a print on fresh paper is pretty minimal.
The slightly lower contrast of the paper has to be accounted for.

Afterward I wash, fix again, wash, and then either dry the print or commence with toning in normal order.

I can't stand seeing paper go to waste.

Hope this helps a little.

This is totally the wrong way to go about it. People should not use out-dated fiber paper, nor try any fancy tricks to make it 'usable'. Instead they should ship it all to me (on their dime), so that I can fix it out and use it for final support paper for my carbon prints!!!!

PS...do what you want with the old RC!!

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 17, 2013

Vaughn said:
This is totally the wrong way to go about it. People should not use out-dated fiber paper, nor try any fancy tricks to make it 'usable'. Instead they should ship it all to me (on their dime), so that I can fix it out and use it for final support paper for my carbon prints!!!!

PS...do what you want with the old RC!!

Obviously!

How silly of me.

Ian Grant · Oct 17, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
I don't get this cadmium business. I paint with colours containing cadmium all the time.

The Cadmium salts used in emulsions were banned from use in the EU many years ago and later from batteries as well. Kodak was the last big company to use Cadmium in a B&W paper in Ektalure.

The more soluble a Cadmium salt is the more toxic through ingestion, inhalation, contact with skin, those used in paints are insoluble so not as toxic, the ones in papers are soluble.

Ian

Ian Grant · Oct 17, 2013

Vaughn said:
This is totally the wrong way to go about it. People should not use out-dated fiber paper, nor try any fancy tricks to make it 'usable'. Instead they should ship it all to me (on their dime), so that I can fix it out and use it for final support paper for my carbon prints!!!!

PS...do what you want with the old RC!!

I had a lot of old Agfa paper that I sent for recycling (Ag recovery) 6 weeks ago, something in the emulsion caused the base paper to turn quite a strong salmon pink, I tried fixing it out to no avail. Had it worked I would have passed it on for the cost of the postage.

Ian

Vaughn · Oct 17, 2013

Ian Grant said:
The Cadmium salts used in emulsions were banned from use in the EU many years ago and later from batteries as well. Kodak was the last big company to use Cadmium in a B&W paper in Ektalure.

The more soluble a Cadmium salt is the more toxic through ingestion, inhalation, contact with skin, those used in paints are insoluble so not as toxic, the ones in papers are soluble.

Ian

At the time, I remember hearing that the cadmium removal from photopaper was more for the factory workers' benefit rather than the end-user. I still have a stash of Portriga Rapid 111 paper I occasionally print on. Definitely a little on the green-toned side...nicely corrected by a little KRST.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 17, 2013

silveror0 said:
Thomas, that's considerable washing, so if you are doing this process with Ilford FB Warmtone I thought you should be aware of info from an Ilford pub that I have. To quote:

"The optical brighteners that give MULTIGRADE papers their brilliant, sparkling whites stay exactly where they are needed - in the highlight areas of the print. All MULTIGRADE papers, except MULTIGRADE FG WARMTONE, have anchored optical brighteners which means they won't wash out and the paper stays white. With MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE, the brighteners can be removed with extended washing for an even warmer base tint."

I've also posted this info on the LF forum some time ago.

Good information.

Shawn Dougherty · Oct 17, 2013

silveror0 said:
"The optical brighteners that give MULTIGRADE papers their brilliant, sparkling whites stay exactly where they are needed - in the highlight areas of the print. All MULTIGRADE papers, except MULTIGRADE FG WARMTONE, have anchored optical brighteners which means they won't wash out and the paper stays white. With MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE, the brighteners can be removed with extended washing for an even warmer base tint."

I've also posted this info on the LF forum some time ago.

This is absolutely noticeable as well. When I want extra warmth I wash for about 1.5 hours. It's something you want to test because you need to account for it with your drydown when printing.

Merg Ross · Oct 18, 2013

Thanks to all of you for your replies.

I took the easy test route, and got my answer this morning. I have never seen such mottled paper, pink in color and with phenominal abstract patterns. Who needs a camera, lens and film to produce fine art photography?

Seriously, it is toast, and as Ian suggested, was stored in too damp a location. An order for a fresh supply is going out today.

Thanks again,
Merg

I should have mentioned the paper sans development that went directly into the fixer was fine. Any use to you Vaughn?

Vaughn · Oct 18, 2013

Merg, yes it is. Unless you need it out of your way ASAP, perhaps I can swing by and pick it up the next time I am passing thru the Bay Area. Possibly over the Thanksgiving holidays.

Vaughn

Merg Ross · Oct 18, 2013

Vaughn said:
Merg, yes it is. Unless you need it out of your way ASAP, perhaps I can swing by and pick it up the next time I am passing thru the Bay Area. Possibly over the Thanksgiving holidays.

Vaughn

Vaughn, no problem storing it. 99 sheets of (outdated!) 16x20 Ilford Multigrade Glossy Fiber paper. Let me know when you are in the these parts (East Bay). I'll save the paper for you.

Merg

Vaughn --- need to ammend, just took another look. About 70 sheets of the Ilford and an unopened 50 sheets of Oriental Seagull VC Fiber (16x20).

RalphLambrecht · Oct 18, 2013

DannL. · Oct 18, 2013

Ian Grant said:
The Cadmium salts used in emulsions were banned from use in the EU many years ago and later from batteries as well. Kodak was the last big company to use Cadmium in a B&W paper in Ektalure.

The more soluble a Cadmium salt is the more toxic through ingestion, inhalation, contact with skin, those used in paints are insoluble so not as toxic, the ones in papers are soluble.

Ian

The MSDS for Liquid Light Emulsion & Ag-Plus Emulsion states that CADMIUM CHLORIDE is an ingredient. Just to note.

Testing Outdated Paper

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