testing fix on exhaustion

RalphLambrecht · Mar 17, 2015

adelorenzo said:
I use two fixer baths which helps reduce the risk of incomplete fixing.

Also, a small bottle of Edwal's Hypo-Check lasts forever, I find it the easiest way to test my fixer.

It's unfortunately an unreliable test,because the fixer is done well before the test shows a cloudy substance at around 2g of silver/liter but it's better than nothing.

Rudeofus · Mar 18, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
It's unfortunately an unreliable test,because the fixer is done well before the test shows a cloudy substance at around 2g of silver/liter but it's better than nothing.

Would it work for testing first fixer bath in a two bath setup?

removed account4 · Mar 18, 2015

Ghostman said:
There is also this:

i had a conversation with the good folks at sprint about this years ago, mainly because the hypo check is readily available
and seems like it would be a reliable test. i was told a few things ... first, it is unreliable with some fixers.
some have a larger capacity than edwal's fixer and , some don't. AND most people don't use the hypo test drops correctly.
they tilt the tray or beaker and put a few drops in and see if it gets cloudy ( and that's it )
... the instructions on the bottle used to suggest to do it differently and this yields different results than a few drops in a tray &c
it doesn't say it on the enlarged photograph above this post, but it USED TO SAY remove an ounce of the fixer in question,
you put a 2drops of hypo check in, it may cloud up, but you mix
the 1oz and see if it clears. if it clears the fixer might still have some life in it, if it stays cloudy it toss it.
maybe the posted image is a newer bottle with different instructions of "edwal's hypo check" and the instruciton on the bottle are different ..

aside from the test strips ralph mentions, the good folks that make the silver magnet also have test strips to show how much silver is in the fixer ( and i sell them ). easy to use ( like litmus paper ) .
that said, during the phone conversation i alluded to earlier, the folks at sprint suggested to use the clip test with their fixer.
( mattking's article on the clip test here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) )

it is an age old test that they believe is a good indicator of whether fixer is exhausted or still has life in it.
they also have a SYSTEM ( its the system in sprint system of photography ) where if you use their developer, stop, fix and fix remover .
the WHOLE SYSTEM is exhausted when their stop bath indicates it is spent. i used to use their entire line and not worry about
hypo check and what was exhaused and what wasn't because the stop indicated and it was ez.
whatever test you use, good luck !
john

Ghostman · Mar 18, 2015

jnanian said:
i had a conversation with the good folks at sprint about this years ago, mainly because the hypo check is readily available
and seems like it would be a reliable test. i was told a few things ... first, it is unreliable with some fixers.
some have a larger capacity than edwal's fixer and , some don't. AND most people don't use the hypo test drops correctly.
they tilt the tray or beaker and put a few drops in and see if it gets cloudy ( and that's it )
... the instructions on the bottle used to suggest to do it differently and this yields different results than a few drops in a tray &c
it doesn't say it on the enlarged photograph above this post, but it USED TO SAY remove an ounce of the fixer in question,
you put a 2drops of hypo check in, it may cloud up, but you mix
the 1oz and see if it clears. if it clears the fixer might still have some life in it, if it stays cloudy it toss it.
maybe the posted image is a newer bottle with different instructions of "edwal's hypo check" and the instruciton on the bottle are different ..

aside from the test strips ralph mentions, the good folks that make the silver magnet also have test strips to show how much silver is in the fixer ( and i sell them ). easy to use ( like litmus paper ) .
that said, during the phone conversation i alluded to earlier, the folks at sprint suggested to use the clip test with their fixer.
( mattking's article on the clip test here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) )

it is an age old test that they believe is a good indicator of whether fixer is exhausted or still has life in it.
whatever test you use, good luck !
john

I bought this Hypocheck on the back of this very thread. I don't have an 'is my fixer exhausted?' problem as I am a fan of fresh chemistry (although i do re-use fixer). I though I would try this stuff since I saw it in my local shoppe.

removed account4 · Mar 18, 2015

Ghostman said:
I bought this Hypocheck on the back of this very thread. I don't have an 'is my fixer exhausted?' problem as I am a fan of fresh chemistry (although i do re-use fixer). I though I would try this stuff since I saw it in my local shoppe.

its nice you have a local shop ghostman !
when i was near montbeliard visiting my inlaws
there was nothing there, then i went to belfort, and visted maybe 5 or 6 shops,
i found one, it was on the corner of one of the main roads,
and the clerks were really nice ( and helpful too ! )
there, i was able to pick up some fresh fixer and they had lots of ilford chemistry !
the clerk asked if i wanted developer too, and i told her i was going to be using coffee instead
of commercial developer. she smiled and i told her a little bit about caffenol, as i paid for my fixer ...
( that was in 2007/8 ) i didnt' look to see if they had hypo check ( they probably did, they were well- STOCKED )
.. i have some here in a 10 years old bottle i use it once in a while ( i am lazy )
but i am conflicted and don't really trust it ... i probably shouldn't re-use but only use fresh
but i got in the habit of re-using to save myself a few dollars ..

if you have a system that works for you, by all means enjoy it !
and using fresh fixer, while it can be sort of expensive, it assures your film and prints are
always bathing in fresh fixer and you are not running the risk of contaminating your film or prints
with bad vibes.

john

amellice · Mar 18, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I must admit that some people mystify me. They will readily spend money for film, paper, and developer but then suddenly become Scrooge when it comes to filxer and stop bath. Perhaps it is the unglamorous roles of these two chemicals that makes them appear to be not quite as important aspects of the process. This is really a foolish attitude. An improperly fixed film or print will soon become damaged by various argento-thiosulfate complexes remaining from overworked fixer. In addition these complexes are much harder to remove with washing. You will see this attitude repeatedly on APUG. People will appear to be quite smug about "beating the system" in extending the life of stop baths and fixers past their useful capacity.

There exist test solutions for determining when a fixer has reached its useful capacity. However they must be used carefully and the results can be hard to interpret. But there is a very simple and effective way to determine the useful life and that is to keep track of the number of in2 of film or paper passed through a bath. Then simply discard it when the manufactures recommended capacity is reaching. Simple, effective and no interpreting "iiffy" test results.

+1 very true, funny thing is that for stop bath for example, I use Ilford indicator stop bath and it's 1+19 and would make up to 10 L. the bottle will last for quite awhile and it's not terribly expensive,

darkosaric · Mar 18, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I must admit that some people mystify me. They will readily spend money for film, paper, and developer but then suddenly become Scrooge when it comes to filxer and stop bath.

+1

Chemicals are the cheapest part, fixer cost nothing comparing to film, FB paper, lenses, cameras... Better discard fixer that is still maybe usable than go on the fixer limit and be sorry later.

removed account4 · Mar 18, 2015

darkosaric said:
+1

Chemicals are the cheapest part, fixer cost nothing comparing to film, FB paper, lenses, cameras... Better discard fixer that is still maybe usable than go on the fixer limit and be sorry later.

hi darko

for people who use a 2 bath fixer system, the 2nd bath does clean up, so if the first bath is reaching the limit of exhaustion,
the second bath does a lot of the work. while i sugested i was lazy, i still use 2 baths, so i am not entirely lazy, just sort of lazy.

darkosaric · Mar 18, 2015

Unfortunately I don't have place for one extra tray for 2 bath fixing, but if I do - I would definitely use it.

MattKing · Mar 18, 2015

darkosaric said:
Unfortunately I don't have place for one extra tray for 2 bath fixing, but if I do - I would definitely use it.

Two bath fixing and a tray stacker are made for each other!

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2015

I've never used 2 bath fixing either. It takes up too much space, and with a short test with a clip of film, you know what is going on with exhaustion. Of course, keeping track of square footage helps a bit too.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2015

When you are working with 8x10s that is ok, but marginal. Working with 11x14 and up takes up too much room.

I had to go to the Jobo for those.

Even washing them is a pain, but I have a special wash sink for up to 16x20s at least.

Nope, single tray of fixer for me!

PE

KenS · Mar 18, 2015

maarten,

If my ageing memory still serves me well enough, I believe I still have a bottle of potassium iodide (?) that I mad up with sterile distilled water a number of years ago that I have occasionally have to transfer to a small 'dropper bottle'. I take a few ml of fixer in a 25ml beaker to which I add a few drops of te the iodide. when a white precipitate appears, that does not 'dissappear' on swirling for a few seconds, I consider the fixer solution to be 'dead' and beyond resucitation.

Ken

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2015

Ken, that does not always work. Sorry, but if the fixer was used with AgCl emulsion and is exhausted, the fails, but if used with a fast film it gives a false test of exhaustion. This is the problem with the KI method.

You can test this out by making up calibrated solutions of AgX in Hypo of various types and concentrations. It takes a keen eye and LOTS of practice to make this test usable. A dip test with a snip of film works better.

PE

amellice · Mar 18, 2015

I've a kitchen counter that would have 1 dev tray, 1 stop bath, 2 fixers, 1 toner and optionally wash aid/hypo clearing tray. the wash tray is always in the sink. all of them are 11x14. a 8x10 tray or 12x16 filled with cold water on the floor to keep my test prints and discards. the maximum print that i can do now is 11x14. in theory i can do 16x20 by reversing the enlarger head and use 16x20 drum but didn't try that yet, don't even have 16x20 paper

Gabrioladude · Mar 18, 2015

the suggestion of "simply toss the old fixer and use new fixer, don't be so cheap", disregards one fact of life for some of us who live in a rural environment. Sure if you are in the city toss it down the drain the city sewer will take care of it (still not a good idea) doesn't apply if you are on well and septic where disposal is more problematic and takes more effort, you do want to get "maximum life" out of the fixer for non-economic reasons….

Sirius Glass · Mar 18, 2015

Gabrioladude said:
the suggestion of "simply toss the old fixer and use new fixer, don't be so cheap", disregards one fact of life for some of us who live in a rural environment. Sure if you are in the city toss it down the drain the city sewer will take care of it (still not a good idea) doesn't apply if you are on well and septic where disposal is more problematic and takes more effort, you do want to get "maximum life" out of the fixer for non-economic reasons.

There is an APUG thread on recovering silver from hypo which would minimize the problem.

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2015

Ammonium Thiosulfate is not harmful to garden plants if diluted and neither is the Silver complex.

Color Blix is similar to the fertilizers used on Rhododendra and Azaleas.

If dilute enough it can be poured outside.

PE

RalphLambrecht · Mar 19, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Ammonium Thiosulfate is not harmful to garden plants if diluted and neither is the Silver complex.

Color Blix is similar to the fertilizers used on Rhododendra and Azaleas.

If dilute enough it can be poured outside.

PE

the solution to pollution is dilution?

removed account4 · Mar 19, 2015

Gabrioladude said:
the suggestion of "simply toss the old fixer and use new fixer, don't be so cheap", disregards one fact of life for some of us who live in a rural environment. Sure if you are in the city toss it down the drain the city sewer will take care of it (still not a good idea) doesn't apply if you are on well and septic where disposal is more problematic and takes more effort, you do want to get "maximum life" out of the fixer for non-economic reasons….

( in most places ) it isn't legal to dump it down the drain whether you are on a city sewer or home septic.
enough silver will corrode pipes, and de-bacteria a septic system and throw city sewer systems out of whack .
kodak used to suggest small amounts were ok to dilute and drain, but later they back-tracked and said have it all safely disposed of.

there have been a lot of people who say it is OK to pour outside in the yard, some even suggest selenium is not harmful
because it is found in multivitamins ... but a lot of what people suggest isn't right ( or legal ).

Photo Engineer said:
Ammonium Thiosulfate is not harmful to garden plants if diluted and neither is the Silver complex.

Color Blix is similar to the fertilizers used on Rhododendra and Azaleas.

If dilute enough it can be poured outside.

PE

i would be careful broadcasting that PE. in a lot of places within the us, and outside the usa that ( pouring spent fixer in one's yard ) could get
them into trouble. i wonder if the silver in the waste stream ends up in the water supply ... and if that causes trouble. i know it is a bactericide and i also know places where silver is mined ( or was mined ) have more than trace amounts in their drinking water &c. so i wonder if there have been studies that show health problems from ingestion ... or if it harms wildlife..

that said, http://www.itronics.com reclaims industrial waste ( spent fixer from industrial settings )
extracts the silver from it, and turns the fixer back into fertilizer ...
i tried to get them to haul fixer locally but it was cost prohibitive. i first learned from them in the early 90s through
a commercial portrait studio ( the biggest in the state ) i was getting folios from. they had a custom made thing where all their
waste was pumped through a vacuum boiler or something like that, and their sludge was hauled off by itronics.

darkosaric · Mar 19, 2015

It would be interesting to know how much damage other chemicals are doing to the systems: like detergent, cleaning chemicals ... of course everybody use it - but somehow I am guessing that all those chemicals are more damaging that some small amount of Rodinal and fixer.
What is legal and what not is another thing.

removed account4 · Mar 19, 2015

darkosaric said:
It would be interesting to know how much damage other chemicals are doing to the systems: like detergent, cleaning chemicals ... of course everybody use it - but somehow I am guessing that all those chemicals are more damaging that some small amount of Rodinal and fixer.
What is legal and what not is another thing.

that is a good question darko, i have no idea.
i have a distant cousin who's married to a water scientist
and a water scientist friend i bump into every few years
the next time i see either of them i will ask.

there are also folks i know who pour their spent KCn
(cyanide based wet plate fixer ) in their back yard
because they were told it came from the ground
so they are pouring it back ... in the ground ...
( they were also told this by someone who teaches wet plate )

it makes me cringe sometimes the stuff people say ...

from what i have been told by water science people water / effluent disposal laws
are all local, so no mater what anyone suggests on the internet is OK where they live
chances are it might not be OK where someone else lives ...

darkosaric · Mar 19, 2015

jnanian said:
it came from the ground
so they are pouring it back ... in the ground ...

Well, Petroleum oil also came from the ground. Little of topic - this reminded me to one philosopher (Slavoj Zizek) who claimed in one interview that we should openly say that there is no nature - we can take control, that nature makes terrible mistakes. He says "just think - something went terribly wrong couple of millions years ago that nature created this huge amount of oil".

Of course that was in a half serious way, and in the context of artificial human made earthquakes that were registered in China.

Photo Engineer · Mar 19, 2015

In the US, we have a fertilizer called MIRACID. It comes in several varieties, but is basically a set of acidic complexed metals to be used on specific flowering plants. It works great! In addition, they recommend that the soil be brought below pH 7 by use of Ammonium Sulfate. So, I have a trusty box of Miracid and a big bag of Ammonium Sulfate here for my rhododendra and azaleas. In the spring they are spectacular, but they just don't bloom long enough.

In addition, we use Calcium Chloride and Sodium Chloride mixes on our walks and driveways and streets. Both of these can be found in spent paper fix along with Ammonia and EDTA.

Now, if you use the concentrate, remember that it will KILL flowers due to the salt effect, but dilute it will not.

Now, on to Silver salts themselves. It has been found that Silver ion is useful in the production of an illegal drug, and some remains behind after production. I will not name the drug, but I want those of you who do use some sort of illegal product, , you are getting a dose of Silver salts in each dose of drug. Oh, and the DEA is (I have been told on good authority) looking into what restrictions should be put on Silver salt purchases.

Oh, and I don't recommend any of this. I'm merely pointing out facts. Like the ones in the midwest who want to ban EDTA as a very harmful substance, but which is used intravenously for heavy metal poisoning. Or banning thiourea as a suspected carcinogen (no tests in humans), when it is found naturally in many flowers. We are overreacting to some chemicals.

Have fun guys.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Mar 20, 2015

A sewage system whether municipal or septic is an aerobic reducing environment full of various sulfur compounds. Any silver ions will be immediately converted to silver sulfide. The solubility product for this compound ksp is 6 x 10-51. To put this in perspective the free silver ion concentration would be reduced to < 0.000000000000000000000001 g/l. Hard to get more insoluble than that.

testing fix on exhaustion

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