Temperature range for Selenium Toning?

lightwisps · Sep 24, 2013

I need to Selenium tone a bunch of prints today. At the present it is a whopping 5C outside. I prefer to tone outside because of the smell. Does anyone know what temperature range Selenium toning can be done? With winter coming I will be forced to do it outside, but am just wondering. Today it is supposed to get up to 18C so later today won't be a problem. Thanks for any information in advance. Don

Sal Santamaura · Sep 24, 2013

Optimum is 73-75 degrees F. Why are you "forced" to do it outside? Besides wearing gloves to avoid skin contact, there's nothing particularly harmful about selenium toner, especially when diluted for print toning. The slight ammonia smell shouldn't really be a problem since you'll be working in full daylight and can pick an open area of the house where it will diffuse more easily than in confined darkroom space. If you're extremely sensitive, how about placing the tray of toner in a large pan on your kitchen stove and running the exhaust hood above it?

David Allen · Sep 24, 2013

To answer the OPs question, Selenium Toner will work when cold - it just takes more time.

As with many photographic chemicals, one should always take extreme care when using selenium toner. You should always wear gloves to avoid transfer of the Selenium into the body through the skin.

For most people this is not the main problem with Selenium Toner but rather the odor of ammonia. The three key ways to tackle this are (in descending level of effectiveness):

Tone outside (this also has the advantage of allowing you to do the toning in full daylight where subtle changes are much easier to see).
Work in a very well ventilated darkroom (ideally with a system that both extracts fumes and replaces it with fresh air)
Cover the tray while the selenium toner is in use (which is surprisingly effective in controlling the odor but no so helpful in judging colour change - which, of course, is not so important if you are toning for a set time to achieve increased Dmax and longevity).

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

Tom1956 · Sep 24, 2013

The smell never bothered me--a little bit ammonia-y, but no problem. Better than the smell of sepia toning Peeee-U.

spijker · Sep 24, 2013

Tom1956 said:
The smell never bothered me--a little bit ammonia-y, but no problem. Better than the smell of sepia toning Peeee-U.

Same here. My replenished selenium toner (KRST 1+9) actually hardly smells anymore while it still tones well. But even Agfa Viradon (stinky polysulfide toner) is doable inside. I recently did it in a small toilet with the fan running and a plexiglass plate covering the tray. The laundry/dark room doesn't have a fan yet so I didn't want to do it in there.

Alex Muir · Sep 24, 2013

I find the smell of the Harman product really unpleasant to the extent that it must be harmful if inhaled. I'm interested in David's solution of covering the tray. Perhaps a Perspex sheet lid, or even clear food wrap would work, and allow the necessary observation of colour changes. As far as temperature is concerned, I find it takes forever to work if the solution is below 20c. Alex

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pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2013

In the coming weeks maybe and certainly the coming months toning outside might be difficult in Ontario until maybe April/May next year? Gloves could perform two tasks.

1. Prevention of selenium contamination on skin
2. Prevention of frostbite

On a serious note, will selenium work at all as low as 5 degrees C and if so by how much will it extend the OP's time outside?

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2013

Alex Muir said:
I find the smell of the Harman product really unpleasant to the extent that it must be harmful if inhaled. Alex

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Does the Harman stuff smell worse than say Kodak's selenium or others' selenium? Is there a ranked order of smell or are they all much the same? This might be important for those who can't stand the smell in a room.

I suspect that these days we are less used to strong smells than we were in say the 1950s. I seem to recall that every time my parents decorated the house there was a very strong ammonia smell for days. I cannot now recall what caused that.

pentaxuser

David Allen · Sep 24, 2013

pentaxuser said:
In the coming weeks maybe and certainly the coming months toning outside might be difficult in Ontario until maybe April/May next year? Gloves could perform two tasks.

1. Prevention of selenium contamination on skin
2. Prevention of frostbite

On a serious note, will selenium work at all as low as 5 degrees C and if so by how much will it extend the OP's time outside?

pentaxuser

Selenium will work at very cold temperatures because it is a chemical reaction - naturally the perfect temperature is 20 C but, if you have the patience, it will work at far cooler temperatures.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

DREW WILEY · Sep 24, 2013

I generally prefer to keep the dilution of my sel toner constant (1:20), but to slow it's activity by using relatively cool water (around 60F), simply because some of the papers I use tend to tone quickly and I don't want the effect to go overboard. Cold water, no... going to temp
extremes might be bad for the paper emulsion itself and lead to frilling.

cowanw · Sep 24, 2013

Berg selenium is much worse than either Kodak's or Ilford's.
Be sure you wear gloves when you shampoo your head, with most anti-dandruff shampoos.:confused:

George Collier · Sep 24, 2013

I'm surprised no one else said this, but what I've heard is that selenium is not good to breathe. IIRC, it was in Fred Picker's newsletter about toning. He recommended open windows, and a fan blowing across the trays to minimize, if not eliminate inhaling the stuff (including the gloves) and he was pretty emphatic about it. He even went so far as to say that he accumulated a lot of prints to do, then did them all in a "toning day" with windows open to minimize his contact with it.
I don't know from technical experience, but I follow his advice. Be nice to hear from PE or Simon on this.

lightwisps · Sep 24, 2013

Thanks to all who answered. I am using Ilford and the ammonia smell is quite strong. I can handle it, but not so sure of my wife.

I will do it outside until mid winter. Then it can get to -30C before the wind chill. Yikes, it is cold. Don

pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2013

It seems that the smell might be unpleasant but not noxious or it might be both. I wonder which it is?Presumably it isn't as unpleasant/ noxious at lower dilutions but if noxious then at what if any dilutions does it simply become unpleasant?

pentaxuser

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2013

I use to tone with KRST at 100F or so for color change with Portriga Rapid (pre-soak full washed/dry prints, 1:16 for 30 seconds, 15 second drain time then in fresh HCA). Repeatable color (from original green to rich brown without going to red). It rocked my world! Prints still look good 20+ years later.

Alex Muir · Sep 24, 2013

George Collier said:
I'm surprised no one else said this, but what I've heard is that selenium is not good to breathe. IIRC, it was in Fred Picker's newsletter about toning. He recommended open windows, and a fan blowing across the trays to minimize, if not eliminate inhaling the stuff (including the gloves) and he was pretty emphatic about it. He even went so far as to say that he accumulated a lot of prints to do, then did them all in a "toning day" with windows open to minimize his contact with it.
I don't know from technical experience, but I follow his advice. Be nice to hear from PE or Simon on this.

I'm pretty sure the Harman instruction sheet warns against inhaling the fumes. I also try to work outdoors if possible. Alex

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Sal Santamaura · Sep 24, 2013

George Collier said:
I'm surprised no one else said this, but what I've heard is that selenium is not good to breathe...

No one toning prints using any of the commercially available selenium toner concentrates is breathing any selenium. Once in solution, selenium will not vaporize. The smell some complain about is ammonia.

The thing that is dangerous is mixing one's own selenium toner from powdered selenium. Inhaling selenium dust is bad, bad, bad. I haven't heard of anyone home brewing selenium toner for decades. Relax.

Tom1956 · Sep 25, 2013

The era we live in means when you buy a little tube of glue, it practically has the whole hazmat handbook printed on it--in 3 different languages, French English and Spanish. This is because the manufacturers know that lawyers are circling overhead looking for a new kill. All that is in a type size that practically requires a microscope. So what happens is you can't read anything that small, so you shake your head and just use it and figure every product you buy is going to kill you. Or you don't worry about it and just use it. As for me, I'm not going to hide if I smell a little Selenium toner or if I somehow taste the distinctive taste of developer from my fingers.
Better than dropping dead of a heart attack out on the golf course on a 95 degree day, like my Dad is probably going to do. 5 hours of hard labor with a heavy bag of gardening implements, and not a thing is produced for all of it.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 25, 2013

Don't mix new toner every time you tone. Save your toner and reuse it, replenishing it with a little stock solution when toning times become too long.

You will need to filter the solution using a coffee filter or the like (I often use a paper towel in a funnel) before using to remove any precipitate.

This will accomplish two important things.

First, your toner won't smell of ammonia any more. Only a faint ammonia smell that goes away very quickly after replenishing.
You will use a lot less toner, saving money and not discarding a toxic heavy metal into the sewer system or your septic tank.

I keep two solutions, one weaker, one stronger, for use with different papers. They have been going for way more than ten years and tone just fine. My last toning session did not even require me to replenish the gallon of toner I was using. It had been sitting unused and unreplenished for more than a year.

Two birds with one stone.

...and do get some adequate ventilation in your darkroom

Best,

Doremus

www.DoremusScudder.com

Temperature range for Selenium Toning?

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