Temperature changes while developing - has anyone experimented?

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Thinking about attempting to develop for some interesting effects in contrast and possibly acutance, using a developer sensitive to changes in temperature. Logically I think this would need to be stand or semi stand development in order to maximise the effects.

My thinking is that a gradual increase in temperature while developing would have potential effects on shadow detail; with stand development, this would be more pronounced in shadow due to exhaustion of developer in highlight areas. I also expect some effect on acutance, but I'm unsure exactly what.

Has anyone tried this, or are there existing discussions of it? I'm not great with the search bar. Also - first post, hi everyone!

koraks · May 20, 2024

Welcome aboard!

The idea of using two developers for complementary effects is not unheard of - but AFAIK more in that literal sense: two distinct developers. One application that comes to mind is Wolfgang Moersch' "Siena" lith developer for prints, which is a metol-only developer and used in conjunction with (before or after) a regular lith developer (hydroquinone only). It seems to me that an approach with two separate developers gives much more control.

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Thanks for the reply! I think a two developer option has clear benefits in terms of repeatability and consistency, so I might look into options for film with that. Are you aware of any?

This mostly came out of a half-baked (quite literally) reading of Anchell and Troop, particularly their discussion of adjacency and acutance in low-solvent developers (see eg 1998 edition, pp 38-39). Obviously this is fairly experimental but I can't be the first person to have thought of it. I would also expect that the increasing temperature would facilitate an increased transfer of fresh developer across to the highlights, contributing to border effects (if for no other reason than Brownian motion increasing with temp) (same ref, pp 51-52).

Clearly reticulation is a risk but I expect a range from say 20-30°C in increments wouldn't be awful. Accidental agitation during the water heating is also a bit of a risk but I think a manageable one by using slow changes of water (a print washer as a bath might suffice).

koraks · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
Are you aware of any?

To be honest, not really. Of course I know about 2-bath developers and have tried those - but that's distinctly different. The only example is the lith/Sienna combination I mentioned. I've used that for a while to make quite colorful and pleasing lith prints. I've never tried anything like it on film, but in principle, it should work and it might give some rather interesting effects, indeed. Since I only did this with paper, I never thought about small-scale effects like acutance.

saffewsad said:
This mostly came out of a half-baked (quite literally) reading of Anchell and Troop

That sounds quite pleasant - takes me back, hah!

saffewsad said:
Clearly reticulation is a risk

Most modern films are really, really difficult to get to reticulate. Don't worry about it too much!

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

koraks said:
Most modern films are really, really difficult to get to reticulate. Don't worry about it too much!

Good to know - the literature I had found indicated it wasn't, much of a concern unless going for very drastic changes.

Thornton two bath looks interesting, might give it a crack.

Bill Burk · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
Thinking about attempting to develop for some interesting effects in contrast and possibly acutance, using a developer sensitive to changes in temperature. Logically I think this would need to be stand or semi stand development in order to maximise the effects.

My thinking is that a gradual increase in temperature while developing would have potential effects on shadow detail; with stand development, this would be more pronounced in shadow due to exhaustion of developer in highlight areas. I also expect some effect on acutance, but I'm unsure exactly what.

Has anyone tried this, or are there existing discussions of it? I'm not great with the search bar. Also - first post, hi everyone!

It’s well known. I’ve seen it taught (or written) that when developing a print you can pour warmer developer in the places you want darker. Or you can just rub with your thumb. Don’t know how widely these tricks are practiced. But they work.

Andrew O'Neill · May 20, 2024

You should play around with 2-bath developers, like Thornton's, or even divided D-23.

chuckroast · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
Thinking about attempting to develop for some interesting effects in contrast and possibly acutance, using a developer sensitive to changes in temperature. Logically I think this would need to be stand or semi stand development in order to maximise the effects.

My thinking is that a gradual increase in temperature while developing would have potential effects on shadow detail; with stand development, this would be more pronounced in shadow due to exhaustion of developer in highlight areas. I also expect some effect on acutance, but I'm unsure exactly what.

Has anyone tried this, or are there existing discussions of it? I'm not great with the search bar. Also - first post, hi everyone!

Welcome.

If you (semi)stand for a long time - say, 60 min - you will reach full shadow speed. No need to crank up the temp. Increasing temp may also give you more pronounced grain so it's ill advised unless that's what you want.

If you want more acutance, dilute more. Try D-23 1+9, and add 0.5g/l of sodium hydroxide (lye) - being careful in handling the lye, of course. Then semistand it for an
hour.

You will get razor sharp negs, pretty much full shadow speed, and managed highlights. This can too much of a good thing with 35mm (first example) but is really nice with larger formats (second example):

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230608-1-14-No_Spin_Zone.jpg

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230616-1-91-Barking_Mad.jpg

Since you are new, I will repeat what I have posted many times before. I spent several years digging into semistanding and EMA development and kept note to share with others. You can find them here:

tundra/Stand-Development

gitbucket.tundraware.com

Don_ih · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
a gradual increase in temperature while developing would have potential effects on shadow detail; with stand development, this would be more pronounced in shadow due to exhaustion of developer in highlight areas. I also expect some effect on acutance, but I'm unsure exactly what.

I believe any impact would be negligible. Any effect you see would be difficult to prove was a result of the developing technique.

But try it. It's easy enough to test a few times.

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Andrew O'Neill said:
You should play around with 2-bath developers, like Thornton's, or even divided D-23.

Did have a good look at Thornton - I wonder if a reduction of the sulphite might pay dividends in longer development. Definitely worth some experimentation.

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

chuckroast said:
Welcome.

If you (semi)stand for a long time - say, 60 min - you will reach full shadow speed. No need to crank up the temp. Increasing temp may also give you more pronounced grain so it's ill advised unless that's what you want.

If you want more acutance, dilute more. Try D-23 1+9, and add 0.5g/l of sodium hydroxide (lye) - being careful in handling the lye, of course. Then semistand it for an
hour.

You will get razor sharp negs, pretty much full shadow speed, and managed highlights. This can too much of a good thing with 35mm (first example) but is really nice with larger formats (second example):

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230608-1-14-No_Spin_Zone.jpg

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230616-1-91-Barking_Mad.jpg

Since you are new, I will repeat what I have posted many times before. I spent several years digging into semistanding and EMA development and kept note to share with others. You can find them here:

tundra/Stand-Development

gitbucket.tundraware.com

Interesting, and thanks for the resource - looks great! I actually quite liked the 35mm shot, but I can see why you advise caution. What's the mechanism of the sodium hydroxide on the D23? Obviously an increase in alkalinity, but how does this affect development? I presume increased developer activity, but is it uniform across densities?

Using it isn't that much of a worry for me, I prefer to mix a 5% solution (outside, in small amounts) and work from there anyway.

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Don_ih said:
I believe any impact would be negligible. Any effect you see would be difficult to prove was a result of the developing technique.

But try it. It's easy enough to test a few times.

Luckily, I have a pile of film I haven't gotten around d to developing yet, and there's nothing important on it. Time for a bit of experimentation

Don_ih · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
experimentation

I'm all for experimentation - I do a lot if it myself. It works waaaaaay better than speculation.

Romanko · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
Clearly reticulation is a risk but I expect a range from say 20-30°C in increments wouldn't be awful.

Reticulation is a risk if the temperature changes abruptly. It you slowly increase the temperature you should be able to go higher than 30°C.

mshchem · May 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
Luckily, I have a pile of film I haven't gotten around d to developing yet, and there's nothing important on it. Time for a bit of experimentation

Temperature gradient, ramping up is commonly done in things like analytical techniques (I remember gas and liquid chromatography from 30+ years ago).

Keep records, try to change things at a constant or just controlled and repeatable fashion.

Report back. Good luck

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Yeah I figure control is important to determine whether it's actually having any effect. Similar rolls with one at a constant temp should be sufficient. Will report back - might take a bit of time though.

mshchem said:
Keep records, try to change things at a constant or just controlled and repeatable fashion.

Report back. Good luck

Romanko · May 20, 2024

mshchem said:
Keep records, try to change things at a constant or just controlled and repeatable fashion.

I assume technical difficulties with temperature control might explain why this technique has not been used. Repeatability would be another issue. Even if you could achieve consistent repeatable results with your setup, replicating them be problematic. Stand development introduces its own challenge with uneven development. In any case, good luck with your experiments! I am sure you will learn a lot in the process.

Have you figured out how to control temperature in your setup? Do you plan to use a sensitometer and densitometer to get objective density measurements?

saffewsad · May 20, 2024

Personally I want to avoid vibration, as I expect it would not be ideal for control, especially in terms of assessment of adjacency effects. Thinking a variable tap, a thermometer, and a slow flow through a paper washing tray - that way it gets replaced gradually, avoiding sharp changes in temp and possible convection changes as a result. It's not ideal for repeatability but it's not awful either.

Romanko said:
Have you figured out how to control temperature in your setup?

Edit: nine posts into my photrio career and I'm being asked about the dreaded densitometer. Haven't got either presently, but I suppose if I want to join the serious scientific inquiry club I'll need to obtain them eventually.

Romanko · May 20, 2024

You can probably get a water heater for a fish tank. They come with different power ratings and usually go up to 35 degrees.

chuckroast · May 21, 2024

saffewsad said:
Interesting, and thanks for the resource - looks great! I actually quite liked the 35mm shot, but I can see why you advise caution. What's the mechanism of the sodium hydroxide on the D23? Obviously an increase in alkalinity, but how does this affect development? I presume increased developer activity, but is it uniform across densities?

Using it isn't that much of a worry for me, I prefer to mix a 5% solution (outside, in small amounts) and work from there anyway.

With the extreme dilution, D-23 loses its alkalinity. The lye merely restores it. At that dilution, D-23 becomes an acutance developer. I've never taken it beyond 1+9, but I suspect it may be possible.

Because I am semistand or EMA developing this, the mechanism is pretty much the same: The high levels of dilution emphasize sharpness and exhaust highlights, and the long development time gets the shadows to full shadow speed.

Don_ih · May 21, 2024

If your tank is full of 20 degree developer and you put it in a tray of water that's 35 degrees, the temperature of the water in the tray will drop over the development time and the temperature of the developer will constantly rise. You'd want the right volume of liquid in each container. They'd probably reach an equal temperature in less than an hour, depending on the volumes of liquid in each container.

loccdor · May 21, 2024

I believe a temperature change during stand development will lead to thermal currents which can create more unevenness. I purposely go the opposite way and try to make sure my developer is as close to the air temp as possible when doing stand.

snusmumriken · May 21, 2024

Bill Burk said:
It’s well known. I’ve seen it taught (or written) that when developing a print you can pour warmer developer in the places you want darker. Or you can just rub with your thumb. Don’t know how widely these tricks are practiced. But they work.

Rubbing with your thumb (or fingers!) does work, presumably because of local heating as you say, but only if you don't develop to completion. It belongs with the snatching-out style of development, which I gave up when I grew up and read The Print. Also, one is at risk of developing (pun intended) dermatitis.

saffewsad · Jun 19, 2024

Andrew O'Neill said:
You should play around with 2-bath developers, like Thornton's, or even divided D-23.

Sorry for resurrecting this one. Andrew - I'm having a crack at divided D-23. Do you have any idea how much borax is meant to go in per litre for bath b? I've found wildly varied results - Anchell and Troop indicated 18g for 500mL, but I've seen as low as 2g/L. I have 36g in a litre of water per Anchell and Troop, but that seemed excessive on reflection. My borax is granular, so that might explain some of the variation in weight if anhydrous is expected.

koraks · Jun 20, 2024

saffewsad said:
I've found wildly varied results

I'm not surprised; it's probably not critical in the least, for two reasons:
1: the pH of a borax solution is dead stable virtually regardless of how much you dissolve:

Source

2: In a 2-bath developer approach, the rate of development is governed mostly by the amount of developer the emulsion is capable of soaking up in the first bath. The second bath just needs to ensure that this developer can do its work.

As always, just try it out and adjust to taste.

Temperature changes while developing - has anyone experimented?

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Temperature changes while developing - has anyone experimented?

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