tell me how to clean trays

[greg zinselmeier]

my trays are flat bottom , Cesco -lite, that have staining from all types of chems. all types of developers have been put through them, Amidol, PQ, MQ, and Glycin, etc. . .

I have also used these trays for toners, like selenium, gold, platinum, etc. for ALT. process.

I need to clean the stains from the bottom.

can you use a belach the stains out? Use like potassium dichromate, or chrome alum, or potassium ferricyanide? or do ijust use a house cleaner like ammonium?

what are the chems? at what percentage? and in what order " TO BOMB" these stains!!!!!?


thanks, greg

 

[John Phive]

Only thing I can offer is do not use bleach to clean your trays.

 

[MattKing]

The traditional tray cleaners were pretty nasty chemicals, so I don't think anyone is making them any more.
This mildly abrasive product would probably be effective: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/2215-Photofinish-Multi-Purpose-Non-Toxic-Darkroom-Cleaner-22-oz.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

got these from from the darkroom cookbook

FORMULA #196
Kodak TC-1
Tray Cleaner
Water, 1.0 liter
*Potassium bichromate, anhydrous, 90.0 g
Sulfuric acid, concentrated, 96.0 ml
* Potassium bichromate is an allergen to some people and a suspected carcinogen. See precautions
under potassium bichromate in Pharmacopoeia.
Store the solution in a stoppered glass bottle away from light. Pour a small volume of
TC-1 into the tray or vessel to be cleaned. Slosh it around so that the solution has access to
all parts of the tray; then pour the solution out and wash the tray thoroughly with water
until all traces of the cleaner disappear. This solution will remove stains caused by oxidation
products of developers as well as some silver and dye stains. It should not be used to clean
hands.
Caution: Add the concentrated sulfuric acid slowly with constant stirring to the cold solution
of the bichromate


FORMULA #197
Kodak TC-3
Stain Remover for Trays
SOLUTION A
Water, 750.0 ml
Potassium permanganate, 2.0 g
Sulfuric acid, concentrated, 4.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter
SOLUTION B
Water, 750.0 ml
Sodium bisulfi te, anhydrous, 30.0 g
Sodium sulfi te, 30.0 g
Water to make 1.0 liter
To remove stains in trays from silver, silver sulfi de, and many dyes, pour a small quantity of
Solution A into the tray and allow to remain for a few minutes; rinse well and then replace
with a similar volume of Solution B. Agitate to clear the brown stain completely then wash
thoroughly.
Solutions A and B can be used for cleaning several trays but should be discarded after use.
An acid-fi xing bath may be used in place of Solution B, but it is important to wash thoroughly
to eliminate hypo from the tray and the hands.
NOTE: Store the solution in a stoppered glass bottle away from light.
Caution: Add the concentrated sulfuric acid slowly with constant stirring to the cold solution
of the permanganate.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use those eraser sponges.

 

[NB23]

Honest, I’d try wet sanding paper #400-600 for a satisfying job.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Well, if the stains don't come out with cleaning then whatever the stains are made of won't come out in processing chemicals. Why not just leave them there?

I label all my trays with the chemical used in them - so there are dedicated developer, stop, fix, HCA, selenium ... trays. It keeps staining to a minimum and those stains that do form are naturally compatible with what the tray is used for - "Render unto the developer the things that are the developer's, and unto the toner the things that are the toner's."

 

[MattKing]

It occurs to me that the liquid cleaner we use to clean the top of our smooth top stove might be effective if used with a plastic based scrubber.

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

What Nichols said. Keep an eye out on CL for trays, they are everywhere cheap. Dedicated trays are the way to go.

 

[radiant]

Only thing I can offer is do not use bleach to clean your trays.

Why not?

Dedicated trays are the way to go.

What trays should be kept separate? I've always thought water rinse is enough to keep the trays clean.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

My method for cleaning developer trays:

1. Use a rather strong solution of regular household chlorine bleach. Let it sit in the tray till the stains are gone (or as gone as they'll get).
2. Rinse well.
3. Add working-strength fixer to the tray and swish around for several minutes (you're fixing out the rehalogenated silver )
4. Rinse again.
5. Any stains that don't come off, you can attack with a sponge and a lightly-abrasive cleanser like Cif or Bartenders Friend.

FWIW, I find that the sludge from the developer tray can transfer to the back of fiber-base prints; that's why I clean my trays. Any stains that are really hard to get off, however, won't get on the print and can be disregarded.

I use dedicated trays; developer, stop and fixer all have their own trays. I use the stop-bath tray for selenium toner. Only developer goes into the developing trays. I don't think segregating trays is really necessary, but I've got a lot of trays and there's no reason not to. The toner tray gets sludge too; it comes off fairly easily with cleanser.

Best,

Doremus

 

[mrosenlof]

I use dedicated trays for developer only. The rest get what they get. Only the dev trays (a couple of sizes) have stains, and I don't worry about them.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

thanks for all the imput. FYI

The Amidol tray was completely black, I went outside had my respirator on and added the Potassium dichromate/ sulfuric acid mixture : it fizzled!! and after a few seconds it calmed down. I rinsed with outdoor hose and then added a ammmonium hydroxide, rinsed, then a concentrated bleach, rinsed, and used a "Fixer" . . . . TO NO AVAIL! it is still a charcoal grey bottom.

the MQ, PQ trays and water developement trays are still a light tan colour. The fix tray, and hypo clear trays are white( no stains) as one would exspect.

what promted all of this was I was using an unidentified tray from so so so many years ago that read on the back " platinum toner/gold toner" , But before that it could have been a MQ developer tray????? any way it turned my Selenium toner purple with a percipitant in it? My Selenium toner was only 50 ml + 950 ml water, so it wasn't that much of a waste. But i thought I should just "BOMB OUT" ALL the trays . . . .. . .. .

enjoy the week end you APUGERS out there!!!!

 

[greg zinselmeier]

thanks Michael _r , that was awesome link, loved all those trays!!!

 

[brian steinberger]

I’ve been using this stuff for years. Works great.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/2215-Photofinish-Multi-Purpose-Non-Toxic-Darkroom-Cleaner-22-oz.

 

[M Carter]

I'm not sure about the "never use bleach" comment, but those sorts of posts ("the best camera ever is etc etc") with no explanation aren't of much use. Tell us why, back it up, etc. Does chlorine weaken the plastic or something? Why doesn't decades of exposure to chlorinated water become an issue?

I've been happy with the spray-bottle cleaners with bleach (they disappeared for a while at the start of the pandemic of course). Spray and let sit, scrub with a kitchen scrungy-sponge. As others have said, if bleach and scrubbing won't remove the stain, it's not likely to leach out in processing. I have a mix of the soft-plastic trays (Cesco style), harder white plastic, and the beige very-stiff plastic. The beige really resists stains (glossy hard surface), the softer ones not so much. I have a deep 20x24 wash tray (Cesco) and nothing will get all the stains from it, but it was stained when I found it.

I have sulfuric acid for making copper bleach, really not interested in using it as a cleaner!

 

[Ulophot]

Here's a demo of the TC-3 cleaner.

 

[Pat Erson]

Forget about it. All the cool people have stained trays anyway.

Psychologically speaking (and psychology plays a HUGE part in the darkroom) I find it more satisfying to work with a clean dev tray... mine is yellow so you really see when it's dirty.
Btw I use warm water and my fingernails to clean it.

 

[Down Under]

My suggestion will take us away from the original topic a bit, but what the heck.

Most tray cleaners are nasty chemistry. It makes good sense to me to avoid buying and using them as much as possible.

Since the 1990s, in December I visit our local Reject Shop and buy several cat litter bin trays - the small "kitten'"size is ideal for me as I do mostly 4x5" FB prints, now and then a 5x7" but that's it.

Now and then (= rarely) I need a larger set for bigger prints, altho' I've not printed an 8x10" for a long time. Then it's another visit to the RJ for two or three of the 'tomcat' size trays.

These do the job nicely in my darkroom. They are also sold in varying colors, so you can keep a different hue for each chemical.

I wash and rinse them well after every printing session. Eventually, they can be cleaned well and reused for... you guessed it, cat WCs!!. I also dispose of my chemistry after every session and I no longer do selenium (or for that matter any other) toning, so my darkroom is 99% chemical problem-free.

Ditto my Jobo developing tanks. The washing and rinsing part, I mean, and no harsh chemistry ever goes into them, even my Photo Flo is done separately in its own purposed container. I do wish the Reject Shop sold Jobos, but one can't have everything in life...

 

[john_s]

Only thing I can offer is do not use bleach to clean your trays.

I had a stained melamine kitchen spoon. I put it in fairly strong bleach and it went black and then disintegrated. I know that melamine is not the same as whatever plastic the trays are made from, but be aware that when it's concentrated it can very destructive.

 

[Beevo]

got these from from the darkroom cookbook

FORMULA #196
Kodak TC-1
Tray Cleaner
Water, 1.0 liter
*Potassium bichromate, anhydrous, 90.0 g
Sulfuric acid, concentrated, 96.0 ml
* Potassium bichromate is an allergen to some people and a suspected carcinogen. See precautions
under potassium bichromate in Pharmacopoeia.
Store the solution in a stoppered glass bottle away from light. Pour a small volume of
TC-1 into the tray or vessel to be cleaned. Slosh it around so that the solution has access to
all parts of the tray; then pour the solution out and wash the tray thoroughly with water
until all traces of the cleaner disappear. This solution will remove stains caused by oxidation
products of developers as well as some silver and dye stains. It should not be used to clean
hands.
Caution: Add the concentrated sulfuric acid slowly with constant stirring to the cold solution
of the bichromate


FORMULA #197
Kodak TC-3
Stain Remover for Trays
SOLUTION A
Water, 750.0 ml
Potassium permanganate, 2.0 g
Sulfuric acid, concentrated, 4.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter
SOLUTION B
Water, 750.0 ml
Sodium bisulfi te, anhydrous, 30.0 g
Sodium sulfi te, 30.0 g
Water to make 1.0 liter
To remove stains in trays from silver, silver sulfi de, and many dyes, pour a small quantity of
Solution A into the tray and allow to remain for a few minutes; rinse well and then replace
with a similar volume of Solution B. Agitate to clear the brown stain completely then wash
thoroughly.
Solutions A and B can be used for cleaning several trays but should be discarded after use.
An acid-fi xing bath may be used in place of Solution B, but it is important to wash thoroughly
to eliminate hypo from the tray and the hands.
NOTE: Store the solution in a stoppered glass bottle away from light.
Caution: Add the concentrated sulfuric acid slowly with constant stirring to the cold solution
of the permanganate.

 

[Beevo]

I am planning on embarking on this cleaner, specifically the TC-1.

In searching for acid I find listings for different concentrations, here is an example:

I have forgotten most of what I learned about chemistry in high school (1973) out side of safety procedures.

Thoughts?

 

[snusmumriken]

I am planning on embarking on this cleaner, specifically the TC-1.

In searching for acid I find listings for different concentrations, here is an example:

View attachment 378882

I have forgotten most of what I learned about chemistry in high school (1973) out side of safety procedures.

Thoughts?

I bought sulphuric acid years ago in full knowledge of the handling procedures, and to be honest I find the bottle of conc. sulphuric to be a nagging liability still. Anyway, you must have eye protection, acid-resistant gloves, easy access to water, and some kind of spills kit (cat litter is the cheapest option).

Although I do use the formula given in post #4 to clean glass bottles, I don't worry too much about trays. I'm with @Nicholas Lindan in post #7 on that. The stains are deep into the plastic and your cleaner would need to go equally deep to expunge them. Buy a few more trays and label them all with a Sharpie. The few professional darkrooms I have been in all had heavily stained trays (and sinks).

Edit: PS - colour-coded tongs like the Paterson ones are a great help too.

 

[fgorga]

I am planning on embarking on this cleaner, specifically the TC-1.

In searching for acid I find listings for different concentrations, here is an example:

View attachment 378882

I have forgotten most of what I learned about chemistry in high school (1973) out side of safety procedures.

Thoughts?

Please find an alternative cleaner.

Your post says to me that you do not have even the minimum knowledge/experience to use this cleaner (which is called chromic acid in the chemical lab) safely. You need really good ventilation and very serious personal protective equipment.

The recipe cited above says clearly that you need concentrated sulfuric acid. Concentrated sulfuric acid is 18M and is very corrosive and nasty stuff to work with. I would be surprised is you can find a company that will sell this to an individual.

Furthermore, chromate salts are both toxic and carcinogenic. They are also very bad for the environment both in their manufacture and, in not treated correctly, in their disposal.

The mixture of these two compounds is downright nasty stuff. I am a retired chemistry professor and do not consider many chemicals 'nasty'.

When I started out in chemistry in the 70s, chromic acid was commonly used the the lab. We had big vats of it that we would soak glassware in to clean it. By the turn of the 21st century chromic acid for routine glassware cleaning was completely phased out. (It is still used in rare instances where there is not a good substitute.)

If professional chemists don't use the stuff, I think that it is prudent that photographers stay away from it as well.

 

[Beevo]

I am aware of the handling issues and practice them when working with nasty chemicals. My mom (rip) was a chemist and between her and my High School instructor, I had safety drilled into me and that remains.

My wet sink area of the darkroom actually has a powerful vent fan that is used when I do 3D resin printing. While not enclosed it is as close to a fume hood as one could get in a home situation.

Wet Sink

Trays are not really the issue, rather it is the bottles I want to clean. I have lots of trays and they are labeled to keep like chemistry segregated and I am not concerned so much with staining.

I had a jug of some wonderful Tank & Tray Cleaner that I have used in a miserly way over the last 25+ years and it is almost gone. I am pretty sure it is basically the same thing as the recipe listed.

My only stumbling block is the concentration of acid to purchase.