Telegraph: Traditional camera film makes a come back

hmmm - what CGW said.

Mick - There are plenty of facts to prove these numbers, and this is likely conservative. Keep in mind the California alone has a higher population than your entire country. for that matter, your country and Germany combined.

I wont get into the logistics of why certain markets see higher films volumes than others. Its really been confusing.

Film companies are barley hanging on themselves, but they are doing little to help themselves. Simple low cost things they cold do to increase film sales - they do not do. A perfect example is 'us': Our unique, one of a kind process, that creates B&W chromes from most all B&W films, is not supported by 1 of the film manufactures. ILFORD does not even recommend HP5 for use as a positive, yet it is our highest volume film after 14yrs.. how silly a business move is that? All it will do for ILFORD is sell more film for them.

This is the problem with the industry today. The only old-school company we see left is FREESTYLE. They freely give support to photo related industry - even if its free. This mentality just doesn't exist anymore.

The facts remain that as long as the media spews out that cell-phone images are photographic art, gadget driven countries [US, Japan, China, ETc..] will accept the images, and more labs will close.

If the masses do not accept the divide of 'photography' and 'digital imaging', more and more labs will close.

dw

Mick Fagan said:

Doctorfivechrome, I understand it to be an increase in their film volume over the previous year.

Regarding dollar value, which dollar are you talking about? There are quite a few and some of them are doing quite well at the moment.

Perhaps the North American market, which appears to be in free fall from where I sit at the moment, is reflected in your comments.

I'm interested in your comment about there being over 300 labs closed in North America last year. Is there some source to reference this statement?

Whilst many labs have been closing in my country (Australia), there are some opening up, including one not too far from me and another in my sister's country town. This appears to be going against all trends and market statements I know about my own country, but it is happening as I can see it with my own two eyes.

Australia is a small world, I wouldn't under any stretch of the imagination, suggest that Germany is a little world.

Effectively, Germany with it's economy, technology, manufacturing ability and capacity, is the powerhouse of Europe. Interestingly, Germany is currently being lead by a Doctor of Physics, which is a nice change from where most politicians seem to come from.

Mick.

Click to expand...

if lomo, helga, diana, zorki sputnik kievin and the rest of them want to help,
i am not sure why this is thought to be a bad thing ... seeing the golden age of silver halide is on the way out

as a Qtip the the tribe used to say ... push it along

jnanian said:

if lomo, helga, diana, zorki sputnik kievin and the rest of them want to help,
i am not sure why this is thought to be a bad thing ... seeing the golden age of silver halide is on the way out

as a Qtip the the tribe used to say ... push it along

Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.

dr5chrome said:

....

And while you seem to be stuck in some sort of time-warp there in Germany, World-wide labs are still closing left and right. I don't believe you quite understand what is happening outside of your little world.
....

Click to expand...

What an arrogant attitude concerning Germany and the Europeans.
And that from someone who is consciously doing misleading advertising on his website for years. And don't know what is going on in other countries.

Mr. Wood, on your website you are telling your customers that you are "the only quality processing, worldwide, for the remaining Sala film".
That is completely untrue.
And you know that.

There are at least nine labs worldwide doing quality reversal processing of Scala film. Five of theses labs are in the country you have bashed, Germany.
I have lived in several European countries and I know some of these labs, because I have been their customer.

Some weeks ago on photo.net some Europeans informed you about the facts and your misleading marketing. They even gave you the names and internet adresses of the other Scala labs.
Your reaction was quite absurd.
You said you didn't know of all these other labs.
That proves that you didn't know your own market.
You even didn't know your direct competitors.

Sorry, but with your lack of market knowledge you are the last who have the right to critizise others.

Completely ridiculous was your excuse on photo.net:
First you have said you didn't know the other worldwide Scala labs.
Then you have said, you are the only "quality" lab for Scala, that you are better then the others.
That can't be logic at all:
When you don't know the other labs, you can't have tested them.
And because you have not tested them, it is impossible to judge their quality (I have experience with some of them and have got excellent quality).

We as photographers cannot trust a guy who is using such misleading and questionable marketing.

dr5chrome said:

Mick - There are plenty of facts to prove these numbers,

Click to expand...

No excuses, give us the sources.

dr5chrome said:

. Keep in mind the California alone has a higher population than your entire country. for that matter, your country and Germany combined.

Click to expand...

That is complete nonsense!
California has about 37 million inhabitants.
Australia about 22 million.
And Germany alone has 81 Million inhabitants! (source: wikipedia.de)

Another evidence that you don't know the facts about other countries and markets.
We photographers can not trust someone who is unable to do at least the most little, essential steps of market research.

This German market, which is so bashed by you, is by far the biggest and strongest in Europe.
There are even five labs in Germany doing Scala reversal processing. And only one in the US, you.
With so much more labs in Germany for BW reversal it looks like the market there is bigger for that speciality than your home market.

dr5chrome said:

Film companies are barley hanging on themselves, but they are doing little to help themselves. Simple low cost things they cold do to increase film sales - they do not do. A perfect example is 'us': Our unique, one of a kind process, that creates B&W chromes from most all B&W films, is not supported by 1 of the film manufactures. ILFORD does not even recommend HP5 for use as a positive, yet it is our highest volume film after 14yrs.. how silly a business move is that? All it will do for ILFORD is sell more film for them.
dw

Click to expand...

They are not silly, they are clever.
They are Europeans. They know about the all the BW reversal / Scala labs in Europe.
And they know about your misleading marketing on your website.
They know that it would damage their reputation if they do a partnership with a company known for questionable marketing methods.

michaelbsc said:

I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant.

Click to expand...

Michael, the company that produces the Holga (more precise, the founder of the company, Mr Lee) said in an interview in 2009 that the worldwide community of toy camera users is about 1 million, and is very strongly growing. At that time film consumption of this group was 5- 7 % of the whole market. That is statistically significant. And, due to the Lomographic Society International, film sales in this segment have growth rates of 50 - 100% per year.
By the way, after the recent job cut of another 58 employees at Ilford (they had to cut 100 jobs in 2009/2010 if I remember right a former statement of Simon Galley), now the Lomo company is bigger than Ilford (more than 300 people working for them, published in a newspaper report about the company).

Gosh these sorts of threads quickly become tedious...
Positive press for film photography has got to be a good thing.
It may be that film will still ultimately struggle and die, or it may be that some unforeseen resurgence will occur. It may be that film sales will simply stabilise and persist as a healthy niche. But the truth is that none of the armchair sages here at APUG have any idea what will ultimately happen.
We should enjoy any positive news that comes out of companies like Harman, and in the meantime just keep on wasting as much film as we can afford.

Ian

michaelbsc said:

I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.

Click to expand...

Last Sunday our local photography club had a field trip. We rode the D&SNG RR, it was a "themed" excursion centered around Native Americans and their culture.

Dancers in full formal dance regalia performed and told us their stories, we got to take pictures.

There was the usual plethora of digi-snappers plus two of us film shooters. I had the biggest camera for the day, my RB. It was quite the conversation starter.

When I carry around my RB it always draws attention from anyone interested in photography, when I pull off the back and show people the size of the negative they are always amazed.

The camera opens the door to talking about film and to teaching.

I got to teach people about exposure and even muddled through the menus to set exposure on some cheap digi's. That is a truly frustrating experience for their users, especially so when I show them how easy and fast it is with the RB and an incident meter.

My Holga also starts conversations, for different reasons. I get a kick out of handing it to someone over 30, they are typically dismissive until they see the fun stuff it can produce.

People like taking pictures, cheap digital cameras are truly frustrating "toys" because they screw up so often and they are so hard to control. Holgas and RBs and old 35mm SLRs solve those problems.

No film is not a magic bullet but next Thursday I am taking some prints from my train ride. There is some really fun stuff including some portraits of a few of the people who I got to tutor.

The point I want to make here is that the Lomo crowd and the APUG "300" are significant, we do wag the dog a bit.

Digital shooting is all the rage but it has real problems, complexity and cost being paramount.

I'm not suggesting we can recreate or get back to film's glory days, but there is a real opportunity to create a new, sustainable normal, where Ilford and Kodak and Fuji films and mail-order labs can "earn their keep".

SNIP

Film-Niko said:

They are not silly, they are clever.

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i don't think so ...

it doesn't matter where the film is made
there is very little, if any advertising to the general public ..
i don't find that clever ... ( and if you ask me, it is one of the reasons for film's decline )

one of the reasons many people are here on apug, is because
they are tired of the flame-wars and the harshness found on other websites ( like pnet ) ...
i am sure dr5 knows his market very well, he has been around for a long time,
and he IS pretty much the only place to send film to chromify it ...

can you keep your personal attacks out of this thread ??

michaelbsc said:

I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.

Click to expand...

i was under the impression people ( as they do in many lomo-threads )
were badmouthing lomo &C and dismissing them altogether
as a waste of thought ... and an expensive waste of money that only
"posers" would buy as a "fashion accessory" ...

i agree ... the toy camera market isn't large enough, in the grand scheme of things ...

Ian David said:

Gosh these sorts of threads quickly become tedious...
Positive press for film photography has got to be a good thing.
Ian

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Yes, we'll all be rooned said Hanrahan...

Praise every hipster you see with a lomo. Urge them and their friends to buy 3 or 4 more dianas and shoot as much film as they can. Instead of die-hipster-die it should be shoot-hipster-shoot.

Tony Egan said:

Yes, we'll all be rooned said Hanrahan...

Praise every hipster you see with a lomo. Urge them and their friends to buy 3 or 4 more dianas and shoot as much film as they can. Instead of die-hipster-die it should be shoot-hipster-shoot.

Click to expand...

Sure. I even give 'em film when I'm out shooting, though I hear Tom Lehrer's song, "The Old Dope Peddler," whenever I do.

Still, the hipsters have the attention span of lab rats and will move on when the herd of independent minds sniffs something tastier.

This threads far too 'serious' for lomography. Film photography is very serious stuff and toy cameras make a mockery of that. If people are having fun we must put a stop to that.

Lomo as an indicator of World Markets?

the Lomo effect at best, is only an indicator of emerging popularity among mostly a niche group, and ocassionally among professional photographers embracing the (while the younger generation would term the "Film Renaisance") renewed youthful interest in a fuzzy concept through marketing film with a snapshot style that favors artifacts and uncorrected lense issues. Who knew Chromatic aberration and severe lens flare were going to be so cool in the future?

I imagine there are more Mamiya RB67 cameras in the world selling now at less than 1/3 their original price that would (for only one camera model) ammount to more than all of the Lomo sales for a year in good economic times, and that doesn't even include the money generated from the first release sales of this same series at full retail. Lomo is just a drop in an ocean of Global Camera and Film camera sales.

Lomo cameras wont have much longevity and I suspect wont take a beating like the old classic fantastic's do, being almost entirely plastic the lomos will break faster than a smartphone, despite sensational marketing to a generation of people spoonfed on instant gratification with low expectations.

I am hoping that the Lomo crowd eventually turns to classic Fantastic as a means of using their enjoyment for a cool camera for longer than a couple years, but not before I get my Mamiya Set fully situated at current market prices. seriously 200.00US for some of the finest medium format glass and 3.75 a roll of quality 120 film...How can people not want to explore higher quality photography?

I think the uptick in film sales is more representative of a more general return to film use with all kinds of vintage cameras, both as an educational tool and as a process of discovery that leads to an image worth more in terms of value to the photographer than its digital counterpart, the magic seems to be with the analogue experience, particularly with instant film. I have learned basic compositional skills and evaluation in the digital realm but my Film camera is changing the way I view the world (shallow and Deep DOF, with a DOF preview lever on my Mamiya-Sekor lens is a must experience Phenomenon that will teach more in 5 seconds than a digital camera will in 5 years)

smcclarin said:

the Lomo effect at best, is only an indicator of emerging popularity among mostly a niche group, and ocassionally among professional photographers embracing the (while the younger generation would term the "Film Renaisance") renewed youthful interest in a fuzzy concept through marketing film with a snapshot style that favors artifacts and uncorrected lense issues. Who knew Chromatic aberration and severe lens flare were going to be so cool in the future?

I imagine there are more Mamiya RB67 cameras in the world selling now at less than 1/3 their original price that would (for only one camera model) ammount to more than all of the Lomo sales for a year in good economic times, and that doesn't even include the money generated from the first release sales of this same series at full retail. Lomo is just a drop in an ocean of Global Camera and Film camera sales.

Lomo cameras wont have much longevity and I suspect wont take a beating like the old classic fantastic's do, being almost entirely plastic the lomos will break faster than a smartphone, despite sensational marketing to a generation of people spoonfed on instant gratification with low expectations.

I am hoping that the Lomo crowd eventually turns to classic Fantastic as a means of using their enjoyment for a cool camera for longer than a couple years, but not before I get my Mamiya Set fully situated at current market prices. seriously 200.00US for some of the finest medium format glass and 3.75 a roll of quality 120 film...How can people not want to explore higher quality photography?

I think the uptick in film sales is more representative of a more general return to film use with all kinds of vintage cameras, both as an educational tool and as a process of discovery that leads to an image worth more in terms of value to the photographer than its digital counterpart, the magic seems to be with the analogue experience, particularly with instant film. I have learned basic compositional skills and evaluation in the digital realm but my Film camera is changing the way I view the world (shallow and Deep DOF, with a DOF preview lever on my Mamiya-Sekor lens is a must experience Phenomenon that will teach more in 5 seconds than a digital camera will in 5 years)

Click to expand...

You're right. A big problem, though, is the disappearance of used film gear from the remaining old school camera stores, which makes it hard for would-be film shooters to shop and learn. Many tell me they're scared to buy off the big auction site simply for not knowing beans about what they're looking at. I at least had the advantage of shops around Toronto that carried large used inventories 10 years ago I could play around with--and later buy when prices tanked just a few years later.

I don't think we're looking at the full picture here.
Lomographic Society makes mainly replicas of LOMO cameras which were produced in the USSR and sold in communist countries (USSR, Yugoslavia, Cuba, etc). These were made because the soviets wanted to document the people's lives. THat's when two students from Vienna found out about the cameras right at the moment the USSR fell; so production at the LOMO factory stopped. So they founded Lomographic Society International so they could make money out of "fake-vintage" cameras, and they also make their own toy cameras.

I don't like the new Lomography cameras, I own an original LOMO which I find much better and filled with history. I think while it is good that more film is being sold, Lomography might give people that don't remember film the wrong perception of what analogue photography is and isn't. I'm not saying people shouldn't have fun, I'm saying that it would suck that 10 years from now professional photography would be lo-fi pictures taken with chinese plastic cameras.

I hope I made my point clear.

-konsomod

CGW said:

You're right. A big problem, though, is the disappearance of used film gear from the remaining old school camera stores, which makes it hard for would-be film shooters to shop and learn. Many tell me they're scared to buy off the big auction site simply for not knowing beans about what they're looking at. I at least had the advantage of shops around Toronto that carried large used inventories 10 years ago I could play around with--and later buy when prices tanked just a few years later.

Click to expand...

I agree that there is a big problem with the knowledge flow. This is true for all cameras from what I can see, not just for film.

I was on a field trip with the local camera club a week or so back and, like we all did when we were new, the newer members were struggling with exposure, so I helped a few newer members figure out how to set exposure on there cameras.

I found it truly amazing how hard it is to measure, set, and lock exposure on these fancy little cameras. I find it equally amazing that people who are interested enough to come to a club to learn more about shooting end up with such hard to use tools.

With the collapse of the traditional camera store business model I am half amazed that "Art Supply" stores haven't stepped in here.

CGW said:

You're right. A big problem, though, is the disappearance of used film gear from the remaining old school camera stores, which makes it hard for would-be film shooters to shop and learn. Many tell me they're scared to buy off the big auction site simply for not knowing beans about what they're looking at. I at least had the advantage of shops around Toronto that carried large used inventories 10 years ago I could play around with--and later buy when prices tanked just a few years later.

Click to expand...

Agreed - this certainly doesn't help. In my town's local photography shop (which is also where I develop my shots) the only thing you see film-related is Kodak 200 film. If I want more i gotta go to the big city, which is still far away, and I gotta know the right stores.

After spending the last half hour going through this thread (I normally hit the For Sale, Medium Format, and 35mm forums) I had no idea what LOMO was. The quick web search of it was interesting to say the least. I hope those cameras do bring a strong majority of those younger photographers into this world of photography.


I spent my youth into photography like you wouldn't believe, but virtually gave it all up as stuff like job and all the rest of the life took all my time. But I never gave up on the dream. It was probably 6 years ago I pulled out that old Minolta XE-7 to try and take some Christmas pictures of grand children. The shutter was old and tired from not being used....I was abusing that poor camera and didn't even know it let alone understand it. That year, I got a couple of good shots but most were from early digital camera crap because the majority of the film suffered from a bad shutter. After experiencing the frustration of digital P&S cameras that has been spoke of on this thread I started looking into "old" gear.


Without hardly any information I knew that an old Nikon F4 absolutely MUST be a good camera. It was only after I found APUG and photo.net to some degree have you guys educated me and others about just what we are buying, and what to do to get better photographs. Now let's just say I have enough stuff to keep me busy for some time. Thanks to your motivation, I am just about ready to truly explore 6x9, 6x7, and 6x6 photography world.


I have studied your photographs, anaylized your composition.......I have a long road ahead too. Just like the 20 somethings that are having fun with the toy cameras. They just need to see some of us out there to give them motivation. Particularly, they need to see the results of what a quality camera with highly motivated photographer behind it can do. The 20 somethings will soon be distracted by chasing kids around trying to take photos.....it may be several years before they get to the "landscape" phase of their photography hobby like I am just entering.

All this just reminds me that I need an RB so bad.....or do you think it would be appropriate to come out of the wood work with a Mamiya Press in pristine condition? For now, that's what it will be with me. I would think that would be a conversation starter if there ever was one......how many people go out with an old press camera?


And while many kids do take photos with their iPhones and iTouch's, I have seen actual photos printed from the latest generation and was suprised at how good it was. Especially for what it is. But all the kids love it when I break out the "real" cameras. They don't see it much anymore other than at my house.......guess it makes them feel special. Most kids love having a picture in their hands to show.....although they will probably have a copy in their iPhone too. They just have to wait a week for it though......


I talked to the owner of our one big, last photography place in Oklahoma City awhile back. He said there is a slow, but steady call for all things film. And I believe he said that he is processing more film now than last year. That may be due to some dedicated photographers that have also convienced their school boards into keeping photography as an elective in high school, or at least the photography club alive. A friend who works there always can tell when the class starts and what phase they are in by how in less than a week they can virtually have no film on the shelf.


As said previously, I hope they don't need an RB before I can get one cheap!!


Bob E.

A few days ago there was the "night of museums" here in Mainz, Germany. In my art & culture club I showed people how to photograph with selfmade pinhole cameras, how to develop film in caffenol and a darkroom in general. About one hundred people, most of them between 18 und 30 years old, visited our tiny darkroom and stood in awe.

About 15 people asked whether I could offer a course for analog photography and darkroom work. I could sell these courses, no kidding.

Is there an analog renaissance? Yes, definitely.

An interesting thread, food for thought.
I would happily "go Lomo" alongside proper 35mm work, as I enjoy all aspects of photography. From artistical representation to technical prowess.
ANY boost to this form of graphical representation should be viewed as good, especially if the promise of new film comes with it.
Just my 20 pence...

As much as I'm not interested in buying a Holga or Diana camera and never participated in any lomography, I can't object to those who do if it drives film demand and helps manufacturers stay in production because that benefits all of us who do film photography with higher quality equipment.

In a way, this situation's similar to the one that audio guys who like vacuum tubes find themselves in. The volume of vacuum tube business done by electric guitar players is large compared to the number of people running tube amplifiers at home. However, even the most die hard classical music fan that can't stand rock and roll and hates the sound of electric guitars won't object to large volumes of guitar players buying EL34 tubes for their Marshall amps, for example, when it keep the few remaining tube makers in business and helps ensure the ongoing availability of new tubes for their stereo amplifier by extension. I wouldn't be too hard on the lomogrophers since high-quality film photographers also stand to benefit from the increased film sales they generate regardless of how or with what equipment the lomographers run it through.

Tony Egan said:

Instead of die-hipster-die it should be shoot-hipster-shoot.

Click to expand...

...and then die

I can't believe the price of some of these Lomo cameras. They can't be that good can they?

Chan Tran said:

I can't believe the price of some of these Lomo cameras. They can't be that good can they?

Click to expand...

No. But the marketing is that good. My nephew wanted one, and he asked me about it. I offered him a pristine Yashica D, but it just didn't measure up in his eyes.

Not sure where to put this info.

Sorry to report that Kodak's earnings released today reported a 14% decrease in the film division ($396 million 2nd quarter 2011 vs $460 2nd quarter 2010). Let's hope it stabilizes and increases again!

"...film group revenue down 14 percent at $396 million."

Per:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Kodak-posts-wider-2Q-loss-on-apf-3130566025.html