Teaspoon formulas and stickies

eli griggs · Oct 5, 2022

I saw a "teaspoon" formula on making D23 last night and I recall one of the Weston's used a teaspoon Amidol paper developer, years back, so, do you have or know of other teaspoon formulas for the darkroom and, if we find a few to post about, can those formulas be posted in a stickie for quick reference.

koraks · Oct 5, 2022

Didn't Patrick Gainer write a paper on this at some point?
Not really an answer to your questions, sorry, but at least his conclusion does underline their validity. This conclusion, as I recall, was that any inaccuracies in teaspoon/tablespoon measurements were not problematic when compounding B&W darkroom chemistry.

eli griggs · Oct 5, 2022

I'll have to search that paper out to see his conclusions, it'll be an interesting read.

Another volume measuring alternative might be found in Lee Precision gun powder measuring 'cups'.

These tiny, plastic cups on a stick are very accurate, (when you are selling ammo reloading tools, it better be accurate) and the measure system is made to have a business card strike off any excess the top of the cup, which measures in CC. amounts.

If anyone is using the Lee cup system, for any darkroom process, please speak up, it'll be helpful.

An alternative measure cup can be made of empty, gun shells, once the tiny hole in the bottom inside is sealed off, and wire for handles.

The idea is to make the shell case just deep enough for a single scoop of the required loose chemical for a certain process, with you keeping, as needed modified cases, or thin walled tubes separated in plastic bags or small boxes, to be sure you've the correct tool in hand when mixing a fresh batch of chemistry.

juan · Oct 5, 2022

Search for member Gainer posts here. He discussed them frequently. Follow the threads and you can see PE’s comments on the inaccuracy. I think teaspoon measurements are probably good enough for a home darkroom where other factors are not rigidly controlled, either.

eli griggs · Oct 5, 2022

juan said:
Search for member Gainer posts here. He discussed them frequently. Follow the threads and you can see PE’s comments on the inaccuracy. I think teaspoon measurements are probably good enough for a home darkroom where other factors are not rigidly controlled, either.

Cheers.

Sirius Glass · Oct 5, 2022

juan said:
Search for member Gainer posts here. He discussed them frequently. Follow the threads and you can see PE’s comments on the inaccuracy. I think teaspoon measurements are probably good enough for a home darkroom where other factors are not rigidly controlled, either.

Any old teaspoon in the kitchen drawer of a US Standard Teaspoon?

eli griggs · Oct 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Any old teaspoon in the kitchen drawer of a US Standard Teaspoon?

I like Oxo measures but basically it boils down to balancing of realitive ratios, within a general measuring set, IMO, so, if you use a set as it comes from the store, you should be within the parameters of a successful mix.

crafmatic · Oct 5, 2022

3 grams of Metol is 1 teaspoon
45 grams of Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) is 2 tablespoons ( 3 teaspoons )

eli griggs · Oct 5, 2022

Two tablespoons equal six teaspoons, three each for a tablespoon.

Guillaume Zuili · Oct 5, 2022

Kodak D-23 developer

Hi, Looking through old photography articles here in the UK, I came across some pretty interesting recommendations for this old Kodak developer. I understand that it is a present day made-up developer from chemicals (which I am not into!). Does anyone know if there is an equivalent proprietary...

www.photrio.com

Here it is

beemermark · Oct 5, 2022

eli griggs said:
Another volume measuring alternative might be found in Lee Precision gun powder measuring 'cups'.

These tiny, plastic cups on a stick are very accurate, (when you are selling ammo reloading tools, it better be accurate) and the measure system is made to have a business card strike off any excess the top of the cup, which measures in CC. amounts.

A fellow North Carolinian, of course he would recommend this. I actually have a number of scales but find the Lee plastic cups faster & easier to use. At $12 a set you can't go wrong. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101284828?pid=943305

M-88 · Oct 6, 2022

Back when I was just about to start mixing my own D-76, someone posted a D-76 formula from Gainer. Here's the link:

Chemistry questions

Good day I was able to acquire a few chemicals required for making D-76 at home. But there are some things I'm not sure about. Standard D-76 recipe seems to be on this link: http://www.afterness.com/kod_d76.html 1. Metol doesn't look white to me so it must be old and probably expired...

www.photrio.com

I never really used it because I have three teaspoons of various sizes and that is not including whatever cutlery there is in kitchen drawer, which is used for food, not my chems.

BobUK · Oct 6, 2022

Have a look at the videos by John Finch on Youtube. Search for Pictorial Planet, Youtube..
He demonstrates some teaspoon formulas there. (Kitchen measuring spoon set.)
He also has an excellent book out, The Art of black and White Developing. John Finch.

nosmok · Oct 6, 2022

I started out developing with Caffenol with teaspoon measurements, but got better results when I switched to grams (and scales). I'd expect the same progression with 'real' developers.

Doremus Scudder · Oct 6, 2022

There's a table for wieght-to-spoon measurements in the back of The Darkroom Cookbook. It is close for a starting point. Still, the exact ratio of weight to volume depends on the coarseness of the dry chemical being measured.

I like to simply weigh a few spoons of whatever chemical I'm planning on using for spoon recipes myself. That takes the graininess of whatever particular chemical you are using into account (some come as fine powders, others as large crystals and everywhere in between). Once you have a baseline, you can use that for the entire container, provided that the chemical is consistent in texture.

I use spoon recipes for print developers all the time. The error involved using spoons instead of weighing things out for most standard print developers is inconsequential. Film developers like D-23, D-76, etc. that have standard ingredients in rather large quantities work fine with spoon recipes as well.

For developers that need very accurate, small amounts of particular components, weighing is still better. Or, one can make a stock percentage solution and use a predetermined amount of that in the mix. Then you can use volume measurements instead of weight. For example, I use a 1% solution of benzotriazole when mixing ID-62, and just add the correct amount of liquid to get the small amount of BTA the recipe calls for. Many chemicals keep well in aqueous solution, others need alcohol, glycol or TEA.

FWIW, I've posted a few of my spoon recipes here or over on the LF forum.

Best,

Doremus

eli griggs · Oct 6, 2022

M-88 said:
Back when I was just about to start mixing my own D-76, someone posted a D-76 formula from Gainer. Here's the link:

Chemistry questions

Good day I was able to acquire a few chemicals required for making D-76 at home. But there are some things I'm not sure about. Standard D-76 recipe seems to be on this link: http://www.afterness.com/kod_d76.html 1. Metol doesn't look white to me so it must be old and probably expired...

www.photrio.com

I never really used it because I have three teaspoons of various sizes and that is not including whatever cutlery there is in kitchen drawer, which is used for food, not my chems.

Do no use kitchen use measuring tools for chemistry!

Use purpose two bought sets of metal and plastic measuring spoons, 1 tablespoon, 1/2 tb, 1te, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/8 being a basic set but if you find a 1/16, grab that full set.

Do no chance a misadventure by using cooking kitchenware, and mark your darkroom sets so you and others know what they are for.

Cheers!

M-88 · Oct 6, 2022

eli griggs said:
Do no use kitchen use measuring tools for chemistry!

I figured it would be better to stay on the safer side and bought scales to measure/weight all the mecessary chemicals. A "spoon", no matter what kind, sounds not too precise to me.

Sonynolta User · Oct 6, 2022

Waaaaayyyyy back in the 80s, there was an outfit, Zone V Labs (Not Zone VI from NH that sold LF stuff) that offered chemicals and formulas for mixing up chemistry by teaspoon measurements. Back before digital scales, scales were a bit more expensive for your hobbyist. You could even mix up C41, E6 and R3000 (was that pre RA4?) chems by teaspoons, buying little jars of CD3, sulfites, potassium ferricyanide, metol, elon, etc etc etc.

I recently found some of their old newsletters with 'recepies'. I should probably scan and post them here.

People even argued about the accuracy back then. But not online. By sternly worded letters to the editor typed on their Apple //e.

BobUK · Oct 6, 2022

I remember the owner of a small photography shop reminiscing about his photography experiences when he was called up for WW2 service in the RAF.
He reckoned they didn't use ready-made developers and fixers, instead they had tubs of raw chemicals, and just used an enamelled cup to scoop up the rough amounts needed to get a result. So much for professionals.

eli griggs · Oct 6, 2022

Morgan and Morgan's Red Book is a great resource, especially if it carries both the updated pages and removed processes, films, etc.

I do no know if mine goes past 1980, but it was one of the first books on photography I ever bought/read.

I suggest others here dig out their Morgan and Morgan and spend some time each day cruising the films, developers, light bulbs for flash, darkroom safelights, enlargers, hot lights, Speed-a-trons, etc. which you may have to hand in the freezer or come upon.

I recall there is a fair amount of post on old chemistry and mixes of dry developers, bulk chemicals, etc. here on Photrio.com.

Godspeed to All here and the very best of wishes,
Eli

foc · Oct 6, 2022

Spoon measurement vs scales is a bit like cooking. It depends on how accurate you want to be.

Personally and professionally (because old habits die hard), I always used a scales because a gram is a gram.

If you want to have fun then try volume measurements.

eli griggs · Oct 6, 2022

I also use a scale, a gunpowder scale, accurate to one tenth of a grain and there are 7000 grains to a avoirdupois pound, when needed but part of the joy of printing includes using experiments to vary the negative prints between editions, seeing what pleases you in the 'new' light of discovery in your darkroom.

A.Adams was held as a bad printer, and he had at least one person in his history/workflow to push him into making better prints.

That meant variations between editions and when he had others mastering his prints, that was just that much more change in the mix to wonder at.

Mixing small batches of chemistry in the darkroom does no always require the ascetic hand of ubiquity, and for some, the results are still pleasing.

Even better, in the darkroom, there is no single "right way..." to success, which we are all capable in our own right.

IMO.

Doremus Scudder · Oct 7, 2022

foc said:
Spoon measurement vs scales is a bit like cooking. It depends on how accurate you want to be.

Personally and professionally (because old habits die hard), I always used a scales because a gram is a gram.

If you want to have fun then try volume measurements.

Well, yes, a gram is a gram, but people ignore the inherent inaccuracy in weighing out some dry chemicals. The problem is not the precision of the scales, but the water content of the chemical being weighed. Store some anhydrous whatever for a while and it will inevitably absorb some water, sometimes lots, over time. A gram of the older, water-laden chemical contains more water weight and less actual reagent than a newer, completely desiccated batch would.

To be sure, this only affects some chemicals, but it's an issue nevertheless. To reduce the margin of error, I try to buy chemicals that are in their most stable state; neither tending to absorb nor lose water over time with storage. Keeping things in tightly sealed containers helps too.

Best,

Doremus

Sirius Glass · Oct 7, 2022

foc said:
Spoon measurement vs scales is a bit like cooking. It depends on how accurate you want to be.

Personally and professionally (because old habits die hard), I always used a scales because a gram is a gram.

If you want to have fun then try volume measurements.

One needs to use US Standard Teaspoons and not just any "teaspoon" grabbed out of the drawer. There is a difference.

john_s · Oct 7, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
Well, yes, a gram is a gram, but people ignore the inherent inaccuracy in weighing out some dry chemicals. The problem is not the precision of the scales, but the water content of the chemical being weighed. Store some anhydrous whatever for a while and it will inevitably absorb some water, sometimes lots, over time. A gram of the older, water-laden chemical contains more water weight and less actual reagent than a newer, completely desiccated batch would.

To be sure, this only affects some chemicals, but it's an issue nevertheless. To reduce the margin of error, I try to buy chemicals that are in their most stable state; neither tending to absorb nor lose water over time with storage. Keeping things in tightly sealed containers helps too.

Best,

Doremus

I fully agree. I recently found that my potassium carbonate which I use at the recommended 750g/L for Pyrocat Part_B was significantly weaker than it should have been, based on a reasonably accurate measurement of its specific gravity (density). I thought that my storage of a bulk plastic lined bag was fairly good but apparently not nearly good enough. There is good information about sodium carbonate and its degrees of hydration but less info about some other the compounds that we use. My potassium carbonate now seems something like the sesquihydrate or a bit more hydrated, although it hasn't become different to look at.

Teaspoon formulas and stickies

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