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Taking a stand...

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It's fair to say that most people here on APUG get frustrated by comparisons of their own work to Digital work, and also the attitudes of some Digital users towards film users.

Those of us that do exhibit need to do so in a way that promotes the virtues and benefits of film based photography and keeps it alive in the minds of the public. There is a growing trend for people who have only used digital to begin trying film photography and that needs encouraging.

Bill in particular has to be applauded for the way he's taking his Wet plate work to the public at Craft fairs, I'm sure that approach will tempt some to try analog photography.

Ian
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzMQcE2E-1o&feature=fvw

I agree with Ralph Gibson, I've seen it for what it is, digital, and further I'm no longer waiting for a masterpiece to come out of my iPhone, that I actually thought any would.

I personally would not want to show my work with other forms of images, there is a reason why I use film, make prints by hand in a darkroom from that film which was exposed in a film camera and that's why I'm here in an analog photography users group.

I really don't care what anyone thinks, I'd rather show my prints to myself than put them up in a dog and pony show at some country fair, if the work is important to me it's important enough to be shown how and when I want. It's a personal decision I've made. Each person makes their own choices, I support those who believe the work should stand on it's own.

Curt
 
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If I am in a group show, I like to be in it with other artists who are exploring similar concepts with their work. The work does not need to look similar. It does not need to be made the same way. It does not need to be of the same quality of technique and craftsmanship. What I do not want to be a part of is some seemingly-random collection of work that shares some meaningless feature such as the work all being in the same medium, or all being made by artists from similar locations or institutions. These types of shows are the most meaningless, IMO. I want to go into a show that is curated such that all the work is related in a conceptual way, or at the very least shares subject matter. The curation of a show that I call a good one should lead the visitors to an exploration of a certain element of something in particular, not just to random visual delights.
 
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I did not have the desire to be arrogant, but... I was extremely frustrated...

Therefore my decision.

Well that's totally understandable. I think it is important to remember that amidst all the BS there are people working with sincerity using digital materials and they should not be painted with the same broad brush. Nor should we curmudgeons, holding onto these ancient analog techniques.
 
SNIP

Let's stretch the example a bit further. How many people here would want their own masterpieces in in a "Dollar Store"?

i would love to have my work selling at the dollar store.
but unfortunately, i have not been able to break into that market.

it isn't as easy as it seems ...
 
i would love to have my work selling at the dollar store.

Me too. Why not.

Some of this discussion seems a bit silly to me. A bit like me refusing to do a gig in a band where the other guitarist uses a Fender guitar just because I use a Gretsch.


Steve.
 
No, your analogy would better apply to someone who refused to exhibit alongside those that used different films or papers, rather than those who decline to exhibit alongside completely different media for an audience who will likely be confused into failing to appreciate his art for what it is.

I would compare to a sculptor with a few hand-made pieces declining to exhibit his work at an injection-molding tradeshow.
 

I think my analogy is quite close. To the general public, a photograph is a photograph. They don't really care if it was created optically, chemically or by jets of ink.

I think this is a very similar analogy to using a solid body or a hollow body guitar. To most people they are just guitars.


Steve.
 
I think my analogy is quite close. To the general public, a photograph is a photograph. They don't really care if it was created optically, chemically or by jets of ink.

Exactly. The public largely doesn't care, and for the most part they shouldn't. It's about the content, not the process.

If analog photography can't compete on content, then it is doomed a quick death.
 
To the general public, a photograph is a photograph. They don't really care if it was created optically, chemically or by jets of ink.

Oh, and this holds for sculpture too. As proved by millions of suburban women buying commodity, mass-produced decor (usually carefully 'broken' so as to give the kitschy appearance of something handmade). This doesn't mean that there's no market for genuine articles. Handmade baskets, for example, still command a very hefty premium over machine-made baskets, and the market preserves and values the distinction. That kind of distinction needs to be cultivated in framed art, which is why I feel that efforts to distinguish handmade photographs from other print media are generally a positive thing, even when they are done for reasons I disagree with.


If analog photography can't compete on content, then it is doomed a quick death.
It may indeed be doomed to a quick death. That I won't argue. However, I flatter myself that there are some people in the world that care as much about substance as "content" (which I find a decidedly Web2.0 feeling, digitainerization-inspired term).
 
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I agree - I prefer the handmade as well. But an art show is that - a show of art. No one is submitting factory produced art from Ikea or Michael's.

Just because a work is made digitally doesn't mean that there is no craft involved. I guess this is the wrong site to argue that point on, though.
 
I think my analogy is quite close. To the general public, a photograph is a photograph. They don't really care if it was created optically, chemically or by jets of ink.

Uhm...
To someone who cares about what photography is about: images (!), an image is an image, a photograph a photograph.

It's not just the dumb masses who don't give a hoot.

But apparently some people are more enamoured by (with?) their tools, how they work, how they smell, etc. and they don't care nearly as much (if at all - sometimes you really can't tell) about images.
 
I truly care about imagery and am not at all tied to processes, the tools and how they feel and smell. lol...

Many people constantly are worried about the disappearance of materials which have enabled them to make images for 20-30-40 years.

Taking a stand instead of merely talking about this problem may serve to show companies producing light sensitive materials

that there is a market for their products.

Per Volquartz

Dead Link Removed
 
Suckered into another anti-digital rant. I would like to see a forum created that is appropriate for these postings and then I can ignore. Subject line is "Taking a stand... " Here I was thinking it was on stand development.
 

Steve,

I think you have it 100% correct. I really don't like to tooth my own horn but I will give my personal experience, as an example: I don't make a living through photography exclusively but I have marketed my photography to the same people I sell wine to (my main business for 20+ years). Well, this year I have sold 40 prints. I don't give them away so that was a nice little income boost. Not one single person questioned or inquired about my printing processes. They loved the images, they paid, and they are happy. I don't know if that means anything but in my own little world it does.

BTW...I still like my '53 Tele better than my White Falcon

Best,

Max
 
What I got from Per's original post was that it was primarily about quality. I think if he wants to show only in conjunction with other analog prints, that's fine. I really don't think there's anything wrong with distinguishing the handmade print and emphasizing it. The perception of quality, exclusivity, "specialness", even just "tradition", can be very important to a buyer. People will pay a lot for quality handmade jewelry, leatherwork, collector knives, etc. partly because it is handmade. I'm not saying it's all about monetary value. I'm saying it's more about it being valued, appreciated.

Many famous images have been produced in the form of high quality reproductions made with the highest quality press techniques. The prints from these sell for only a fraction of a photographic print, making them accessible to many, but not competing with an actual photographic print for serious buyers. They're cheap and plentiful, and no matter how good, they still don't equal the photographic print's quality. I got the feeling that what Per has been seeing is something equivalent to that with the people displaying inkjet prints.

Reading his post, I didn't think that he was being snobbish or intolerant, but that his decision was based on observation. The point can be made that his quality will stand out next to the others, but the point can also be made that the lack of quality within the exhibit brings down everything in it.

I will say that I've seen some bad B+W analog prints and some nice B+W inkjet prints, but IMO, when B+W inkjet prints are bad, they're truly awful.
 
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I personally think it completely depends on the venue and demographic you intend to market to. In Per's case (being somewhat familiar with Per) I think it may make some sense. I don't see it so much as taking a stand in some kind of anti D ethical sense, but more as a stand as an artist. Per's work is outstanding, and I think his mastery of the analog process and the collect-ability of his work enables him to take such a position and be largely devoid of self aggrandizement. I think the majority of us are in a different boat. Personally, when I have exhibited in venues that are primarily digital I have welcomed the comparison, however there is no question in my experience that the average patrons of such venues are more reluctant to spend real money. Few prints were sold at any price. Pedestrian exhibits tend to attract pedestrian people, at least in regards to buying photography. (I'm not saying they aren't perhaps fine people in other ways, they just seem to not believe in spending money on art.)

I think the idea here concerns the physical artifact of the print as the product of the artists work and the end result of the process, and the manner in which the artists perceives their own work and the control they wish to exert over the exhibition of it. This can be hard to grasp until you have sold a few physical prints, but what I realized after a while is that each print was transcendent from the image, it was a thing and that thing was inherently imbued with specific qualities by the kind of thing it was, and very definitely walked hand in hand with the image form the experience of being present as real physical artifact, much like a sculpture or painting. I don't find an artist to be self aggrandizing when they claim to have made a watercolor or an oil as opposed to a "painting". Why should it be different for photographers? This personal perception is for me where a photographic print departs from an image. That the images are compelling and attractive to many people is in Per's case a given, so I feel the assertion about the image being a good one by any means isn't particularly pertinent to Per's position. Per's prints are damn fine both technically and aesthetically, easily among the best I have ever seen, so if you like his kind of vision that part is way way in the bag.

That said, I have exhibited alongside some pretty lacking analog prints, and although I can't say what the difference is from one point of view, from another I do see the need for traditional prints to re-establish an identity as a process. I don't think the idea of resisting the current trend to homogenize image making by any means into one broad category needs be perceived as elitist. Prior to the Borg enlargements were enlargements, contact prints were contact prints, platinum was platinum, etc. and nobody got their panties in a bunch at all. These days if you wish to simply acknowledge your process you are almost instantly accused of being hung up on it. I vehemently disagree with that and feel folks that have mastered a process to the point where it is a unique statement to a specific medium are very right to tout their mastery of that medium. I think that most who say process is irrelevant haven't bothered to truly master one.

The winner of the Indy 500 doesn't just win some car race, that persons wins a particular race with a particular kind of car on a particular kind of course. Is the driver wrong to reveal he drove an Indy car? Should they now need to race in the Daytona 500 with the Indy car? Stock cars and Indy cars are both highly specialized things at the pinnacle of their individual discipline but only an ignoramus would assert they were the same thing. Per is to my mind just choosing not to drive an Indy car in a stock car race.

My initial reaction to this thread was to shut it down or send it to the soap box as a simple anti-digital rant, but I have restrained myself so far as the discussion has been for the most part cordial and not particularly adversarial. How, where, and other details of the prints we exhibit is a valid topic as long as it doesn't degenerate into simpleness, so I hope folks will keep this in mind when posting, and hopefully folks will continue to walk the fine line. If it does degenerate, I'll send it down.
 
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From buyer's stand point, I shy away from buying inket printed art. Many of them (if not most) doesn't have the depth of color or clarity that I look for in photographs. If there was a choice, I would prefer to buy (and pay for) silver gelatin prints. However, if we are talking about ones printed digitally but using more sophisticated process, such as the ones used by major labs, I don't have problems buying digitally created prints. I look for quality and aesthetics in the final product, not the method used to produce it.

From photographer's stand point (and I do not do this professionally), I am a photographer first and film/traditional_process user second. I choose my media based on my needs and goals. Which, for me, ends up being digital for color and analog for B&W. I do it this way because of the control I have and the result simply pleases me more than if it were the other way around.

I understand the OP's frustration though.... spend so much time perfecting the craft and someone walks in with stacks of prints.... but turning away potential sale or those who appreciate his art, I'm not sure if I agree.
 
SNIP



i would love to have my work selling at the dollar store.
but unfortunately, i have not been able to break into that market.

it isn't as easy as it seems ...

In my neck of the woods dollar stores don't sell stuff for a dollar!? I wouldn't have my works so misrepresented.
 
Nice post, Mr Brunner.

For my own work I do not separate image and process/print. No more than a painter would separate his image from how he puts in onto canvas, or the sculpturer would separate the form of his/her work from the materials used in creating the form.

The Seeing becomes part of the whole process -- not an isolated occurance that I now must find a way to present to the public.

But some people are all about the image -- that's cool.
 
I truly care about imagery and am not at all tied to processes, the tools and how they feel and smell. lol...

That remark of mine wasn't aimed at you, Per.
But at the suggestion that people who care more about the image then about the smell of fix in the morning are to be found in the "general public" and not among serious photographers.

But yes, my view is that people who indeed don't care about the process, materials, etc. nearly as much (if at all) as the image are the only people who are photographers.
 
Suckered into another anti-digital rant. I would like to see a forum created that is appropriate for these postings and then I can ignore. Subject line is "Taking a stand... " Here I was thinking it was on stand development.

I don't think it is an anti-digital rant really.
It is about the suggestion that, say (an analogy creates distance, and thus clarity. But yes, is always imperfect too) that a great novel cannot be written except using a specific pen of a particular brand, and only of the right 'vintage', on specially selected paper, by the light of a particular bulb in a specific lamp.

We must not allow ourselves and our purpose to get lost in a such an irrelevant web of details about the process. Except, perhaps, if you don't really have a purpose other than messing with lots of stuff without a purpose.
But that's not being creative. That's being a tinkerer, a hobbyist who spends all of his time building dog pens for the fun of it, without having or intending to have a dog to make use of it.
 
It seems important to me that the stand that Per is taking relates solely to where he intends to exhibit his own work. I don't really understand why he supports his comments by referring to other types of photography generally - especially given the fact that he is at least open to working with those who use digital methods (see the workshops on his website).

I would guess that at least statistically, if you limit yourself to exhibitions that feature analogue materials, you will be more likely to be displayed alongside work from more experienced photographers, because there are relatively fewer inexperienced photographers who exhibit using those materials, but a higher quality of "competition" certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.
 

In your analogy, Per is a calligrapher. Digital imaging is Microsoft Word.
 
In your analogy, Per is a calligrapher. Digital imaging is Microsoft Word.

I can live with that analogy, yes.
So a great novel can only be written by a calligrapher. Turns into worthless drivel the moment the same words are recorded using MS Word...

Neither calligraphy nor Word will produce a great novel. And we want to read, produce even, a great novel.
 
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