Tabletop RA4 processors

I just find it easier not to worry about replenishment, and only mix enough RA4 for a single session or day. The chem are cheap enough, and
mixing enough only takes about 5 min, and the chem is always fresh that way. Fussing with replenishment would only add to the work.

mtjade2007 said:

RCP-20 tanks are normally filled with something like 2 liters of working solutions. The tanks are not all the way filled up. If overfilled contamination of one fluid from another will occur. The tanks do not have any overflow passage for the fluid to overflow. There are only 3 holes at the bottom of the tanks attached with 3 rubber hoses for draining. Everything is so simple. So yes, you could design and fabricate an overflow mechanism and a refilling device with precision measurement for accurate draining and refilling. Keep in mind that the amount of fluid to refill does not equal to the amount to overflow or to drain. There is constant loss of fluid by carrying over and vaporization. So it will not be trivial to figure out an accurate replenishing scheme. You will always need to fill more than the amount to drain.

By the way the workflow of a home darkroom optical color printing will be extremely slow. There is always one to two test prints done to figure out the correct filtration and exposure. If you are lucky you may hit it right on the money on your first print development. Don't expect to be able to crank out many prints on an evening or even on a day. The RCP-20 will likely to be rolling and rolling most of the time without actually processing anything. It doesn't take long for the house to be full of the chemical smell and yet not actually processing anything.

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You write a lot about the shortcomings of the RCP-20, so I assume it is the only tabletop RT processor you know from first hand experience ... The thing is, the RPC-20 is not a particularly good RT processor, and then, it is not even a RA4 processor to begin with. I am therefore not sure how relevant your observations are for RA4 procesors in general.
I am using a Thermaphot RT processor in a "home processing situation", it does not possess automatic replenishment (although it was available as an option), but it has overflow ports and a clever design that restricts carryover of solutions to a minimum. For my needs it is sufficient to replenish the solutions manually once a day. Under certain circumstances, when printing a lot of bigger sheets (12x16), I might do it more often, like twice a day, but this is not the norm. Anyway, the idea that one has to replenish the tanks after every smallish print or every test 2x10 teststrip to ensure the repeatability of results is far from reality. The gerat thing about a RT machine is that you can do a lot of test strips in a row, testing out small variations in filter and exposure very conveniently and that actually helps you to become a much better printer in shorter time. My experience with a drum setup OTOH is that the necessary steps (cleaning, getting drum dry/prewet etc.) are so time consuming and cumbersome, especially for a beginner who still lacks the routine, that after the 3rd or 4th test strip you will say "screw it, this is good enough, I go for the big print now". This is actually a bad habit and not very helpful in getting good results or becoming a good printer, because you start to compromise on quality and will be disappointed sooner than later by your own efforts. In contrast, with a good RT processor, it is very convenient to do test after test strip until you really have found the ideal filter pack and exposure. It makes dialing in filtration and exposure a joy and you will learn very quickly.

Regarding the fumes, if you find that your house is full of fumes before you have even done your first print, your ventilation is absent or seriously lacking. RA4 processing should only be done with proper ventilation, irrespective of whether you use trays, drums or RT processors.

I am not saying a RT transport is the ideal machine for everyone and every application, but I find that especially for a beginner they are very helpful tools indeed, as they take away the burden of constnatly worrying about the formal aspects of the processing (rinsing drums, keeping temperature, prewet, observe processing times etc.) and let you concentrate on what is really enjoyable (at least for me), and that is the printing. So, for me a RT processor is very useful and makes sense in a home dakroom situation if your usual printing habit is to use the darkroom for a whole day, or, even better, a couple of consecutive days. With the Thermaphot, you do not have to clean or empty the tanks or racks overnight, all you do is rinse the parts of the racks that are exposed to air with a bit of water and cover everything with the lid. In this way, you can print for a couple of days in a row or even a whole week with minimum maintenance. When you are finished with your printing sessions, you empty the tanks and clean the racks. This can be done in 30 minutes maximum.
If your darkroom habit is more like doing spontaneous sessions every now and then for a couple of hours and then leaving everything sit again for a couple of days or weeks, there are probably more efficient or practical solutions for processing RA4.

Mnemosyne, you are right that I was talking very specifically about RCP-20. It was a cheap, probably the cheapest, RT processor for EP200 process. I used quite a bit of it with EP200 paper and chemicals. All the shortcomings I talked about were based on issues associated with this RCP-20. I did not imply those to any other RT processors.

I converted my RCP-20 to run on RA-4 process. I did some drill with only water and it worked well for RA-4 timing wise and at a lower temperature something like 90 degree F. I never actually use it as a RA-4 processor because my negative memories about it on EP200 process.

It is true that I did not have a volume to make a RT machine like RCP-20 a benefit for me. I think a lot of us do not have a volume either. So a drum processor such as a Jobo will make more sense.

These days I do have some volume of C-41 films to process from time to time. My Jobo ATL-2300 does a great job for me. It allows me to develop 2x 220 or 4x 120 in one run and do two runs back to back in a roll. I could develop 4x 220 or 8x 120 in one run and still two runs back to back. But I don't want to put too many eggs in one basket.

I then scan all the negatives into digital files and archive them. I may print a few with my Epson R2880, a printer that uses Epson UltraChrome 8-color pigment color inks. I do not foresee a need to go back to do the optical print any time soon. I use 3rd party inks so that the cost of inks isn't expensive.

fotch said:

I did 25 8x10 color prints of a VIP portrait and there were no color shifts between any of the prints. After I adjust for the right filter pack, I just cranked out all the prints. Never had an odor problem although my darkroom was set up in a corner of a larger room, about 2ox25ft. The prints were identical. Its been about 30 years so I may have forgot some details like replenishing but I don't recall doing that. YMMV

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25 8x10 prints without replenishing? That seems too good to be true. I don't know. The tank of RCP-20 is small. It would be impossible to process that many without replenishing.

Ok, I have an ilford cap-40 machine on the way. I am en electronic engineer, so modifying the speed and temp will be a piece of cake. I got a decent deal on it. Hope they work good. I don't need a monster processor for 16x20. This does 11x14 and 8x10.

mtjade2007 said:

25 8x10 prints without replenishing? That seems too good to be true. I don't know. The tank of RCP-20 is small. It would be impossible to process that many without replenishing.

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2 liters divided by 25 prints, about 2.4 oz. per print. Worked for me, and my customer. I don't think is was designed to be replenished, and it was for the amateur market. Better luck with your new machine.

Even one oz is sufficient for an 8x10, provided it is fresh. But other variables sometimes dictate being cautious with a bit more per print.

Maybe it worked because it was almost a continues feed? I exposed all the papers in one batch then I fed them in as fast as the machine could process it. I only did it for this one job, never had a need to do that again.

mtjade2007 said:

Have you used a Jobo ATL processor? You can get identical prints even if you want to print a hundred prints. You can get identical prints on any other day too. On the other hand not all roller transport processors can print identical prints even printing only a few. It depends on if you can replenish accurately controlled electronically. If you go away and come back a week later you may not be able to get identical prints any more unless of course you always dump the chemicals and start with fresh every time, which is never the case.

The real difference between the roller transport and drum processors is in productivity. The roller transport machines need highly precise replenishment not likely done manually or it can be an inferior processor than drum processors such as Jobo ATL processors.

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I have an ATL, but I'd no sooner use it to print RA-4 than I'd use coffee to soup my b/w negs.

An edition of one hundred prints using an ATL? How long would that take you? Sounds like an absolute nightmare.

Re: RT - I've never used a roller transport machine that did not have auto replenishment. Do they even exist? Would that be the Ronco roller transport processor that comes with the free knife set?

"Real difference is productivity." Huh? You think?

If quality is of the slightest concern to you then the real difference is precision color correction. Back when analogue RA-4 was still relevant, every lab operator knew this. Who used a drum for RA-4 other than well-heeled hobbyists who could not wrap their heads around dragging an RT into their basement? Try splitting cc's to remove color casts with a drum. This will make you far more insane than your edition of 100 prints through a JOBO, lol. It's so absurd that I'm left with the assumption that those apologists for drum rolled ra-4 have no idea what color correction entails. Unless, of course, you're DREW WILEY, the preternatural darkroom technician - we'll always make an exception for him

frotog said:

I have an ATL, but I'd no sooner use it to print RA-4 than I'd use coffee to soup my b/w negs.

An edition of one hundred prints using an ATL? How long would that take you? Sounds like an absolute nightmare.

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I probably will never have a hundred prints to process nor would I set up a RT processor equipped with precision auto replenishing feature in my home darkroom. I may occasionally want to make a 16x20 print or two, You sure can turn on your whatever RT processor, prepare a few gallons of juice to do it. But that is you. I will be very happy to do it with my Jobo ATL with only a few hundred cc's of juice.

frotog said:

Re: RT - I've never used a roller transport machine that did not have auto replenishment. Do they even exist? Would that be the Ronco roller transport processor that comes with the free knife set?

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Ha, ha, ha. apparently you have never seen one. But I have one it's a Durst DCP-20. It is a piece of wonderful RT processor for paper. It is made in Germany. It has no auto replenishment. It's a great piece of junk.

frotog said:

"Real difference is productivity." Huh? You think?

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I sure think so. Don't forget about what you said about processing 100 prints. That's the productivity Jobo processors don't have. Have you used a Jobo before? Do you understand the meaning of productivity?

frotog said:

If quality is of the slightest concern to you then the real difference is precision color correction. Back when analogue RA-4 was still relevant, every lab operator knew this. Who used a drum for RA-4 other than well-heeled hobbyists who could not wrap their heads around dragging an RT into their basement? Try splitting cc's to remove color casts with a drum. This will make you far more insane than your edition of 100 prints through a JOBO, lol. It's so absurd that I'm left with the assumption that those apologists for drum rolled ra-4 have no idea what color correction entails. Unless, of course, you're DREW WILEY, the preternatural darkroom technician - we'll always make an exception for him

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The subject matter is table top processors. I doubt lab operators have one and will use one. I happened to agree with Mr. Wiely a lot. People on this forum long enough probably know me. I disagree that Jobo drum processing is inferior to RT processor depending on what you use it for. In fact it is the opposite to individual hobbyists. No one will want a huge stupid RT processor in their home darkroom. I once almost picked up one from a closing lab for a few hundred bucks. The owner was so eager to get rid of it. I probably could get it for free.

No doubt Jobo processors are great, if not the greatest for hobbyiests. No one will argue their capability in producing high quality results.

mtjade2007 said:

No one will want a huge stupid RT processor in their home darkroom.

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You are not in the position to judge what everyone or no one wants or needs. Don't mistake your personal opinion or needs for the needs or opinions of everyone else here. I have a home darkroom and my RT processor is neither huge (certainly not bigger than any Jobo drum processor) nor stupid. When you read my post above carefully again, you will notice that I have given some points why a RT processor might have some real benefit not only for volume users, but also for hobby darkrooms users. RT processors are not only about volume, but also about speed and this speed alone will help achieving good results. If two test strips is all you need to determine your filter pack and exposure than I can only congratulate. For me, it usually takes me 6 to 8, sometimes more test strips to get the result I consider good enough and I can assure you, when I still used a drum processor, it me made me almost go mad to have to run half a dozen or more test strips through it. Now, I am not saying drum processing doesn't work or doesn't have its benefits. I am sure it works for certain people and applications and if it's works for you, than fine. But, please don't claim that you know what is good for everyone else.

mtjade2007 said:

The subject matter is table top processors. ... No one will want a huge stupid RT processor in their home darkroom.

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mnemosyne said:

You are not in the position to judge what everyone or no one wants or needs.

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I guess that "huge" was refering to stand-alone RT processors and not those table-top RT processors..

Hmm. I wonder what I've got still wrapped in black plastic. Sure looks like a 20 inch Thermaphot. Wonder if I'll ever get around to using it.
Someone offered me an almost new 50 inch Kreonite, but I just don't want another remodeling chore. I just made room for two more big
Durst industrial enlargers, and it's time to move on to the long overdo bathroom remodels in the house. Drums will do just fine. If someone
needs a whole bunch of the same thing guess I could play lab and do it on the Thermaphot. Otherwise, for my personal work, I don't care how good a particular slice of pizza tastes to begin with - I just couldn't stand eating the same thing thirty meals in a row. That's how I feel
about all that "limited edition" nonsense.

mnemosyne said:

I have a home darkroom and my RT processor is neither huge (certainly not bigger than any Jobo drum processor) nor stupid.

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Yours is no bigger than any Jobo one. You are indeed not one of those who get a stupid huge RT processor in their home. So Why didn't you get a huge one which would put you in a better position to prove me wrong?

Children, can we all just get along?

I used my unicolor 8x10 drum on a motor base at room temperature and got amazing results. No spills, no mess.
I used my jobo cpe2 (magnet) no lift, what a pain. Had to stabilize everything. Then you pull the wet drum off and it goes all over your countertop dripping water. The results? I wont say identical because there is a color shift and exposure difference but when I work on the best print from both methods I come up with the room temp easy way. Ok, now my ilford processor is en route...cant wait to try it out after I mod it for the right speed.

Even the larger sizes (20") of "tabletop" processors and pretty damn big and heavy. But most stand-alone RT processors for big paper require a LOT of wattage and a dedicated 220V circuit (US), so would stand out like a sore thumb, being impossible to use in the average home darkroom, esp if a drying module is integral, which consumes most of the wattage.

markd514 said:

Ok, I have an ilford cap-40 machine on the way. I am en electronic engineer, so modifying the speed and temp will be a piece of cake. I got a decent deal on it. Hope they work good. I don't need a monster processor for 16x20. This does 11x14 and 8x10.

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I think a decent deal in today's market would be "free". Those things are probably going in junk piles left and right. Good luck with it though, I look forward to hearing about it once its up and running. I fantasize about the day I start printing in high enough volume to fire up my ICP-42 again. But I have doubts it will ever come

Unfortunately Wayne, this stuff is NEVER free, unless you stumble upon it, and the owner thinks it is obsolete. They go for 100's of dollars on ebay. I got this the other day, and the hose clamps where all broken. I totally renovated it over 2 nights. All new hoses, and clamps, and electrical connectors. Cleaned up, and lubricated. Had it running all last night with water test...works perfect. Prints went through great. I sent a 16x20 through and it was straight as an arrow.
The thing is HUGE! I will probably sell it because it take 2 litres to fill it, and I don't do high volume. I just wanted to play around with it for a month or so. For me, the unicolor drum is a piece of cake at room temp, and I don't care what anyone says.....there is no difference in quality as a print done at 95 degrees. I did exact comparisons, and one is not better than the other for sure. So ...why bother with the messy jobo?

Hundreds of dollars? I was offered a hundred thousand dollar processor for free. But it would take hundred of dollars worth of chemicals
just to fill and start up the thing, not to mention the monthly utility bills. You can't just plug these things in an ordinary wall socket! Drums
are still my best personal option. Easy to fix, inexpensive to use and maintain.

I still have a 16" Tabletop Kreonite RA-4 in my basement, that I bought from a wedding photographer friend many years ago. When I stopped doing weddings I drained it.

It always did the job for me.

I am just in it for the fun. A few prints a week here and there if I have enough subject material. No jobs for people.

I hope you will modify it for RA-4 before you sell it. That way it will remain useful and avoid the junk heap. You could start a side business converting them and doing a service to photography.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why a CAP-40 would have any monetary value aside for the fact that some people will pay for them. They aren't good for anything except the obsolete Ilfochrome, are they? That seems like a pretty good way to talk the price down...

markd514 said:

Unfortunately Wayne, this stuff is NEVER free, unless you stumble upon it, and the owner thinks it is obsolete. They go for 100's of dollars on ebay. I got this the other day, and the hose clamps where all broken. I totally renovated it over 2 nights. All new hoses, and clamps, and electrical connectors. Cleaned up, and lubricated. Had it running all last night with water test...works perfect. Prints went through great. I sent a 16x20 through and it was straight as an arrow.
The thing is HUGE! I will probably sell it because it take 2 litres to fill it, and I don't do high volume. I just wanted to play around with it for a month or so. For me, the unicolor drum is a piece of cake at room temp, and I don't care what anyone says.....there is no difference in quality as a print done at 95 degrees. I did exact comparisons, and one is not better than the other for sure. So ...why bother with the messy jobo?

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Wayne said:

I hope you will modify it for RA-4 before you sell it. That way it will remain useful and avoid the junk heap. You could start a side business converting them and doing a service to photography.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why a CAP-40 would have any monetary value aside for the fact that some people will pay for them. They aren't good for anything except the obsolete Ilfochrome, are they? That seems like a pretty good way to talk the price down...

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I once had an attempt to acquire one for conversion to EP-2 or EP-200. That was more than 20 years ago and it was not cheap back then. It is possible to convert it for RA-4 if you can find the right set of gears to adjust the speed of the rollers. I had my RCP-20 converted to the speed of RA-4 with some gears I found from a surplus place. But I never ended up really using it because too much of trouble for replenishing and having no volume of prints to process. For a home darkroom a small drum processor makes more sense and will produce perfect prints. I got one, an expensive one. But I never regretted for the acquisition. The RCP-20 is just sitting there covered by dusts.

If they were designed for Ciba, you could also do RC black and white in them. But why?