Tabletop RA4 processors

I'm curious about the automatic tabletop style color print processors.
What are the most economical and durable brands, pluses and minuses of the various units floating around for sale and what to expect out of them.
I've seen a few on Ebay going for pennies on the dollar but being pretty ignorant of the situation have not made any bids until I know what to look for. I'd like something that is chemistry economical that will do a good consistant job and will tolerate being put away for weeks at a time, ie. easy to drain and clean up.
Anyone care to relate your experiences?

What sizes do you need?

When I was looking I think the Durst Printo was the only thing even close to "economical" but it's limited to 12" or something prints. Even it used 1litre or so of solution. Not a problem for the blix but the developer is more of an issue.

I ended up using drums. Even if you need high volume a bunch of drums won't slow you down too much. If you don't need high volume then the processor doesn't seem a great choice to me.

I found a couple Durst RCP20 models in order to build one clean one, and have some backup parts. I think I spend $200 all total, including shipping. It was originally designed for EP-2 process with developing & fixing times of a little over 3 minutes, so it would need modification for the shorter RA4 times. I found a site that showed which gears to change, but have lost track of it... time to use "The Google"?

I wanted to use it for black & white RC papers, and it works okay, but I think it works better for color.

Here's a link to pics of somebody selling one:
RCP20

I have a Jobo, but it's a bit of work if you want to print any volume. It took me all day to turn out ten prints even though the overall process was only five minutes to the drying cabinet. I remember seeing articles about efficient tabletop machines in the photo mags way back when, and now I'm trying to find out whats out there and how they stack up to each other.

I have an old durst RCP20--the EP2 machine--that my dad regeared for me. He showed me that the racks were run off a drive bar from a belt-- the motor that ran this was also the pump for the agitation in the front tank. The middle tank--small one--is for stop and the last tank is fix or blix I guess. I used it for b/w only. He switched the belt drive--found the right (metric) sized gear for this and then used a chain drive instead. It worked--the process time is 90 seconds. You can adjust the temps in the tanks (dev & fix only) but not the speed.

the second one I got was a Printo. I used that for almost two years as a bw processor using Ilford machine chemistry. I would change the chemistry every two weeks and left it set up all the time. Eventually it shorted out somehow--one of the energy therms I think. The Printo was pretty neat though, but it had some minor design problems, imho. I think the modular design is okay, but makes it harder to level the entire machine, and the chem levels are very close to the tops of the tanks and you have to be careful filling it up or pulling lids off to replenish etc. It's a clever design though, and the racks can be regeared for different process speeds and you can add tanks on etc. You can adjust the temps for the heater therms (energy therm) in each tank as well, and they have thermo cutouts too. It's a well designed little machine.

The RCP was made by Thermophot for Durst and no parts, afik, are available anymore. The Printo--I had a list of phase out dates for parts at one time, but have since lost that. It comes, or came, with a small pack of replacement gears. I had a gear break once--came in handy. The RCP has some soft rollers as well as hard, the Printo was all hard rollers. It doesn't have a pump either--the rack itself is like a screw and does the agitation. The RCP--I had an airlock form once or twice in the pump & it was a headache to get working again.

I think the Printo is a better choice, because there are probably at least some parts still around. Thermophot made machines that are probably worth a look--some sold as Nutek in the US. Mohr Pro is another company to maybe look at as well. These might still be made, I dunno, been a while since I checked...Mohr made some small to mid size machines that were popular in portrait studio labs and hospitals etc. they had an 8x10 sized tabletop RA4 machine that was dry to dry, for example. I'm not sure if they're still around anymore...they used to sell demo models and had a service program that would loan processors out while they were servicing broken ones etc. They had a good rep in terms of reliability.

R/A 4 tabletop processor

I picked up a Thermaphot ACP200 a/k/a Nutek 8 x 10 processor on ebay recently for about $250 and find it to be a big improvement over using trays, which I have used for 30 years. The unit takes 2.5 liters of developer and 2.5 liters of bleach fixer. You put the chemicals in, turn it on and wait about 20m for it to get up to 95 degrees,( check with a thermometer). You lift a cover, insert the 8 x 10 paper in the dark. When the paper is pulled in by the rollers you drop the cover, turn on the light and wait while the paper goes through developer for 45 seconds and through the bleach fixer for 60 seconds, and exits the end of the machine into the tray of water you provide. It takes a while to get the feel of loading the paper into the rollers evenly in the dark, (if the paper is not centered you will get some marks on one edge), but the results are great. When you have finished for the day there are two hoses with plugs that you use to withdraw the chemicals. I flush the two tanks with clear water and flush the two roller assemblies with water after finishing. It takes about 20 minutes to clean up every thing. The unit is well constructed and seems built for commercial use. From checking on Google I have determined that the units formerly sold for a few thousand dollars. Thermophot is no longer in business, so parts will be hard to find. With the digital takeover of commercial photography there are a lot of great deals appearing on ebay for traditional wet darkroom photographers. I have seen Nova units show up on ebay, but those units are not motorized and only heat the chemicals for you while you dip from one tank to the next.

I have a Printo and it works great for RA4. As mentioned it is only 12" wide, which is it's only major flaw in my opinion. I do larger prints in the Jobo, where I can do up to 20x24. The Printo is much faster to use.

I also have an Ilford processor that I have been waiting to setup and try. The new darkroom is taking much longer than I thought to complete and there is no room in the current small room for anything bigger than the Printo. The Ilford processor can in theory do RA4 and Ilfochrome, and came with a wash/dry module as well.

Thermaphot

jtrayers,

Thermaphot (the name is repeatedly wrongly spelled here) is still in business:

http://www.thermaphot.de/us/produkt_intro.html

I use the Ilford ICP42.
It processes up to 16 inches wide.
It's 3 tanks of 2 liters each.
I do Ilfochrome, RA4, and b&W with this machine and have never had any problems with it.
It's going on 10 years old, and still works like new.
It's very easy to clean after each mix.
Highly recommend it.
You can still find them on the bay.
DT

Hey thanks everybody! This is more info than I've been able to find anywhere, better yet it's direct to what I needed to know.
How hard is it to find the gears to redo the Dursts for RA process? Would it be possible to put a motor speed control on the power leads to the drive? It seems these machines are the most common at an economical price. Probably due to the drive speed.

next time I talk with my dad, I'll see if I can jog his memory as to how he did it. I think he got the actual gear needed from grainger to be honest-it's been almost ten years now, but if I recall, the gear fit onto a shaft I guess, that came off the motor, which as I described is also the pump itself for the first tank. That's the only tank that has any kind of agitation in it. You probably can't slow the motor down, without screwing up the pump itself. If the pump fails--then the drive itself fails also. When he changed this gear out--he found the right size chain, I guess it depends on how many teeth the gear has and what speed the motor is running and all that--he's a retired engineer--he figured it out (not me). you'll see if you pull the cover on one of those--there's a belt that goes from the pump/motor to the drive bar. The drive bar runs down the left hand side of the machine like a worm gear I guess--the racks mesh up to it via another set of shafts I guess--they couple with these little red plastic things--you can see these on those jpegs above. I think there actually used to be a conversion kit for the machine, it was a second party type product--I tried contacting Thermaphot years ago and they told me the processor wasn't supported anymore. Online--there was a german site that had some instructions for regearing it as well. I don't know how they did it, or if it differed from what my father figured out--but the way he did it worked. It runs 90 seconds. Ctein had one of those machines as well. In his book "Post Exposure" he wrote a bit about using a regeared one, but didn't elaborate on how it was done.

btw--I have a manual for it somewhere, if you're interested in a copy...

Thanks, if I get one I'll keep that in mind. Hopefully I can find something before too long that won't break the bank and still works well.

I have one of these machines and used it for years. Really worked well for the older process. As far as I could find out, it will work for the current chemicals if you convert it.

I found info about the conversion but never had the time to do it.

Anyway, it may be of interest to someone.

http://www.vogelstimmen-wehr.de/rcp20.htm

I converted the part numbers to Berg as follows:

4/20/05
Gears for the Durst RCP20 to convert it for faster times

W.M. BERG INC.
499 Ocean Avenue, East Rockaway, NY 11518
Sales: 516-599-5010,
Administrative: (516) 596-1700,
General Fax: (516) 599-3274
Toll Free Tel: (800) 232-BERG,
Toll Free Fax: (800) 455-BERG
http://www.wmberg.com/

(min order $50.00 will wave-don't know if they will still do this)

TP20A5W6-14 $10.06
TP20A5W6-32 $21.95

Durst Printo BW/Color Paper Processor Parts

Hello all, I have a couple printo parts for grabs. Make an offer! Paypal to confirmed addy. PM me!

Items Included:

Intro Unit: The Durst Printo Intro module feeds the exposed paper through rollers into the first bath. Once the paper has been inserted, the light-proof cover can be closed. The Intro module has an on/off switch and a mains connection which supplies the other modules with electricity via a plug-and-socket system. BH Photo Retail Price 287.95

Printo energy therm: There are two transport module types for the Printo. The first of which is called the "Therm" because it has a heater that tempers the chemicals. It also includes a motor to move the drive gears that transport the print. BH Photo Retail Price 487.95

NOTE: Items in working order, just dusty with a few stains. For you handy guys I will throw in a couple 3-pin plugs that can be retrofitted to be compatible with 3-pin Printo units. You can piggy back this Therm onto your current workflow up to six tanks. Also the rollers on the Intro unit can be used to refurbish tank you may already have.

THESE ARE VERY HARD TO FIND! GET EM WHILE YOU CAN!

find a fujimoto

frotog said:

find a fujimoto

Click to expand...

Care to elaborate?

another fujimoto guy here

These things are well made. The rollers are either a hard plastic, or a firm rubber, that shows no sign for me of breaking down. All the metal parts are stainlees steel. The cost a mint when new. Mine is a CP-31; 2L in each tank I bought it with a wash/dryer unit as well for $300 last year; 10 years ago it want for over $6000.

The fancier electronics can go flaky - my first tank digital thermostat was wonky, and I repaced it with a less sophisticated unit. The titanium roller pinch springs can snap; I replace mine with rubber drive belts meant for tape players, etc. from the electronics repair store. At .80 per belt the fix is cheap.

glbeas said:

Care to elaborate?

Click to expand...

I've owned all three - thermaphot/durst, fujimoto and the printo. If table top processors were cars the printo would be a '74 pinto, the thermaphot an early '80's diesel mercedes and the fujimoto a mid-90's lexus. The cp51 is the most sophisticated tabletop processor out there - precise replenishment with each print run through the machine, excellent temperature stabilization, electro-magnetic pumps that seem to go forever (ten years of consistent processing and not a problem), the most sophisticated circuitry (they constantly upgraded them through the years), precise and variable speed and temperature control (you can even control the temperature of the dryer), easy alignment between modules (not so w/ the printo), low volume chemistry baths, small footprint, low instance of chemical carryover....just to name a few. New they were 12k but now a decent one can be had for 1k. In fact fujimoto is still manufacturing processors (cp-32) and they still have a distributer for spare parts in the states (Omega-Arkay). Small bath machines are notoriously out of control. Few people realize this probably on account of never having run and read control strips on their machines. I have and my experience has been that the fujimoto, when clean and set up right, stays on target more consistently than the others. Just my opinion...not necessarily shared by others.

Thank frotog, that makes for some serious consideration. I'll put that on top of my list to look for.

Just a comment...in regards the older tabletop processors designed for EP-2, and fixed processing speed. You DON"T have to have a 45 second developer time for RA-4. You CAN process RA-4 at longer processing times, just by lowering the temperature of the solution. The simplest of the tabletops, the old Durst RCP-20, heats the developer and blix with one thermostat in the developer. Of course the blix would also be cooler but blix is not critical at all, the 2.5 minute processing time the Durst gives in the developer and blix respectively would work fine, when you find the best temperature for this time. (trial and error).

Nick Zentena said:

What sizes do you need?

When I was looking I think the Durst Printo was the only thing even close to "economical" but it's limited to 12" or something prints. Even it used 1litre or so of solution. Not a problem for the blix but the developer is more of an issue.

I ended up using drums. Even if you need high volume a bunch of drums won't slow you down too much. If you don't need high volume then the processor doesn't seem a great choice to me.

Click to expand...

I know this is an old thread, but people still read them. I wanted a slot processor but changed my mind. Unless you do a lot of volume they don't make sense. Do you want to clean the rolers, gears, and tanks every time you print? Nope!!! I don't! I am just using drums now.

markd514 said:

I know this is an old thread, but people still read them. I wanted a slot processor but changed my mind. Unless you do a lot of volume they don't make sense. Do you want to clean the rolers, gears, and tanks every time you print? Nope!!! I don't! I am just using drums now.

Click to expand...

Yes this is an old thread and I remember when it first appeared, but I don't think I commented ( I haven't looked through the entire thread).

I can tell you that while you do make sense, until you have used a roller transport machine, don't knock them. I have owned the Durst RCP 20 in another life, picked up second hand and used it for EP2 colour printing. Then when RA4 appeared I picked up a brand spanking new Durst Printo, probably about 25 years ago. Well that Printo is a gem, it's performed faultlessly, mind you I have looked after it.

Last week I did some B&W prints in a few sessions, usually about 20 prints to a session, all different negatives, so far I have close to 120 prints. Set-up takes about 5 minutes, then while the unit is heating the chemistry up, I get ready for enlarging. Within 20 minutes of walking into the darkroom, I run a test sheet of paper through. The test sheet is always of the last negative I printed with 4 minor density differences to align the correct exposure for the session for aging or new chemistry. Then I'm off!

If I'm heading into the darkroom to enlarge only one negative, then I may think about using trays, but to be honest, neither the setting up, nor the cleaning up are a big deal, either in effort or time.

Whatever time I decide to stop, I walk out of the darkroom inside of 10 minutes with everything drained, stored and cleaned. Dismantling, cleaning and drying my Jobo, takes me about the same time.

Your kilometreage may vary, I'll concede that, but I find roller transport machinery to be the bees knees in productivity and find it very hard to see myself ever going back to rotary or tray processing for paper, B&W or colour.

Mick.

Not knocking it, but I never had one. Maybe I need to get one.

For anyone still interested in RA-4, trays and drums might suffice but if true color correction is important to you (and it should be), it ain't going to happen without a roller transport machine.

For people arriving via Google, a slot-processor and a roller-transport aren't the same thing - mentioned in #22 above.

A slot processor is based on what are essentially vertical tanks and, typically (Novatech design), the paper is held vertically within them on special clips. The timing, agitation and movement between chemicals is manual. The units have thermostatically controlled heaters for temperature regulation. There are no moving parts and only a minimal amount of chemistry, which is manually replenished.

Roller-transport machines vary from tabletop models to massive systems (60" paper width, or larger) with a darkroom side and a daylight side that are "built-in" to the building through a wall. Automation of temperature, transport, replenishment, washing and drainage can be complete. Frequently the larger machines will use a three-phase electricity supply. Maintenance can be intensive (a zillion moving parts), as can rate of production while at a very high quality.