T-grain film?

ziyanglai · May 29, 2014

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.. But what is this t-grain film that I'm seeing all over the Internet? And what are some examples of t-grain film? If I'm not mistaken, t-max is one of them. But how do they differ from other film?

Thanks again.

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Ian Grant · May 29, 2014

Yes Tmax films are T grain as are Kodak's colour films, it stands for Tabular grainm, it's the structure of the silver halide crystals in the film emulsion it's a more efficient way to get the best from a film emulsion. The results are finer grain, better sharpness, slightly better light sensistivity. Ilford use a similar technology for their Delta range of films, There's plenty of discussion here about the merits of Tabular grain films compared to conventional films. Choice is quite personal, some people don't like T grain B&W films while others love them.

Personally I've used T grain films since their introduction although I switched from Kodak to Ilford 6 years ago because of better availability.

Ian

Xmas · May 29, 2014

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabular-grain_film

AgX · May 29, 2014

You find t-grains (actually ctsytals) in the most praised pictorial films as in as "cheap" designated medical films.

AgX · May 29, 2014

You find t-grains (actually crystals) in the most praised pictorial films as in as "cheap" designated medical films.

All it is about is the surface/volume structure of the crystal.

dorff · May 29, 2014

In as simple terms as possible, conventional grain films have "round" crystals, and T-grain films have "flat" crystals, a bit like floor tiles. Because the T-grains have a larger surface area for the same volume, they are more efficient in gathering light, and in theory more economical to manufacture because the volume of silver is reduced. Such films include TMax 400 and 100, Fuji Acros and Delta 100 and 400. The three main manufacturers' T-grain films are similar but certainly not identical, as they differ in their spectral response, grain shape and size and tonal curves. Someone who knows what he is doing might develop them to appear indistinguishable, though, as the tonal curve is highly adjustable through development techniques.

T-grain films are better in some ways and worse in others. They look less grainy. They are more sensitive to temperature during development, so the standard temperature compensation chart doesn't work for them. They do not render fine detail, especially in the highlights, as gracefully as conventional films. But it takes a trained eye to see this, and for most it won't matter anyway. I would use any of the current films available, T or not, without worrying too much about it. My own preference leans towards TMax 400 and Acros for 35 mm, and FP4+, HP5+ and TriX for medium format, with grain playing a role in the 35 mm decision. Even so, I have no innate resistance to loading TriX or HP5+ into a 35 mm body, if that is all I have available.

RattyMouse · May 29, 2014

Is Ilford Delta 3200 a T Grain film? What about Portra and 400H?

jonasfj · May 29, 2014

I've read somewhere that the latest iteration of Tri-X emulsion partly consist of tabular grains. True or not? Perhaps someone on this forum knows more?

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Xmas · May 29, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Is Ilford Delta 3200 a T Grain film? What about Portra and 400H?

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/product.asp?n=10
Tgrain is a Kodak term and probably a trade mark all the Ilford Deltas are all similar 'flat' crystals and fine grain for their speed.

They like the T grain need a lot more time in fixer or you won't have archival negatives.

Suggest you fix by inspection open tank after three minutes in fix and agitate with stirrer until milky appearance dissappears then fix for the same time again.

Ricardo Miranda · May 29, 2014

Ilford's term is Core-shell crystal technology achieved using CCG, Crystal Controlled Growth.
An explanation is given here: http://www.harmantechnology.com/DotNetNuke/Technology/CrystalGrowth/tabid/180/Default.aspx

Mainecoonmaniac · May 29, 2014

Does Fuji Acros fall into T grain films? Tmax and Fuji Acros look similar to me.

cliveh · May 29, 2014

ziyanglai said:
Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.. But what is this t-grain film that I'm seeing all over the Internet?

Something to avoid.

pentaxuser · May 29, 2014

As far as I recall, Fuji use yet another name to describe its film as no doubt in the strictest of terms Kodak, Ilford and Fuji films use slightly different "types of T grain" to use the catch-all Kodak phrase but I suspect that trying to differentiate between the three types of grain is getting close to deciding how many angels can alight on the head of a pin

pentaxuser

AgX · May 29, 2014

Not specifically designating an emusion made of tabular crystals does not mean they are not used.

Roger Cole · May 29, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Just be careful what you read. You'll find a lot of misinformation about tabular films, things for which there is no evidence but repetition. Examples include the notion they do not render highlight details as well as conventional films, or that they require much more careful processing. Etc.

I agree in general, but the ARE more responsive to changes in development. This can be good for the zone system but can be a problem and give rise to the myth of requiring extra careful processing if one is sloppy with their development. The best answer, of course, is "don't be sloppy" but it's true that if you are off in time or temperature, it will make less difference with most older films than with the new type films. (Intentionally said that way since all the manufacturers call their version something different.)

Roger Cole · May 29, 2014

cliveh said:
Something to avoid.

Why?

TMY-2 may just be the best black and white film ever made. I use it in 4x5, at least until my current stock is gone (when I will switch to Ilford because Kodak pricing has just gotten silly on sheet film.) I do tend to prefer old tech films in roll film but this is mostly because I have to develop the whole roll the same. It's certainly not a "problem" though and I could do just fine with them. It's just my preference.

Delta 3200 is am amazing film and, more to the point really, your only choice now if you want a black and white film faster than 400. No worries about that though, because it's such a good one.

dorff · May 30, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
I've argued with cliveh about this before. He has a theory the grains are all the same and are oriented in precisely the same direction, which would make the films somewhat unholy. He feels there is an intrinsic integrity to an image on film which would be violated by grain orientation. The problem is he's got an incorrect mental picture of the tabular grain emulsion.

Why? Because it would mimic pixels? I don't get it. And in any event, that isn't what the film looks like, as far as I can see under a microscope.

cliveh · May 30, 2014

Michael, it is only my personal view and I would hope not to give incorrect information. I know that many people like to use T-grain film and I'm sure many wonderful pictures have been recorded on this type of film. However, I believe there are one or two others on APUG who don't like this type of film and presumably for their own personal reasons.

Roger Cole · May 30, 2014

I'm fine with that. I wouldn't advise someone asking to avoid things because I don't like them, though. Try it and make up their own mind.

Truzi · May 30, 2014

I know that "T" isn't the shape of the grain, but it's fun to think that and imagine the emulsion looking like a game of Tetris

pbromaghin · May 30, 2014

Truzi said:
I know that "T" isn't the shape of the grain, but it's fun to think that and imagine the emulsion looking like a game of Tetris

That's why I like Water so much - because the hydrogen molecules are shaped like "H" and the Oxygen like "O".

Arcturus · May 30, 2014

Along with the aforementioned grain difference, TMax films also have less of a toe which will get you a little better tonal separation in the shadows. For some people this is important, others are either indifferent or actively don't like it.

Karl A · May 30, 2014

pentaxuser said:
As far as I recall, Fuji use yet another name to describe its film as no doubt in the strictest of terms Kodak, Ilford and Fuji films use slightly different "types of T grain" to use the catch-all Kodak phrase but I suspect that trying to differentiate between the three types of grain is getting close to deciding how many angels can alight on the head of a pin

pentaxuser

Apparently Fuji's term is sigma grain

Xmas · May 30, 2014

If you dont like grain the 100 ISO don't have any if you need 800 ISO the Delta 3200 is your film the Kodak equivalent gone to gallows already it had better toe speed sad really.

Toe shoulder shape naff all difference on a good 8x10.

The Acros is the film for 1000 sec exposures.

Roger Cole · May 31, 2014

Arcturus said:
Along with the aforementioned grain difference, TMax films also have less of a toe which will get you a little better tonal separation in the shadows. For some people this is important, others are either indifferent or actively don't like it.

Yes and no. The lack of toe means that some exposures may drop completely off a straight line film and show NO detail where they would have showed some, albeit with less separation, on a film with more toe.

But if you're reasonably careful with exposure you are right.

T-grain film?

ziyanglai

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