T-8 Polysulphide Toner Questions/Modifications

[KD4x5]

Trying to find some information on the T-8 Polysulphide toner listed in Tim Rudman's toning book and Steve Anchell's "Darkroom Cookbook" and it's relationship to the Kodak Brown toner in terms of usage and modification. Anyone have any insights into the following questions?

1. Can the T-8 toner be made as a concentrate similar to the Kodak Brown Toner?
   
2. Kodak Brown Toner has a listed working dilution of 1:31 where the T-8 is listed as working strength, are these equivalent toners at these working strengths?
3. Tim Rudman says you can make a replacement Polytoner equivalent by combining Kodak Brown Toner, Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner and Kodak Balanced Alkali in different quantities (ex. 75mL KBT + 17mL KRST + 30g KBA for "rich red-brown"). How would/can you substitute the T-8 formula in place of the Kodak Brown Toner to replicate the effect?
4. How do you balance these additives to achieve different toning effects and what role does each one play in the toner's operation?

Any insight in to this would be very helpful! The Kodak Brown Toner formula is proving difficult to track down so trying to figure out a substitute toner has been proving difficult.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Kodak T-8 toner is what it is. It is not the same as the Kodak Brown Toner. T-8 uses liver of sulfur. which is a complex mixture of potassium sulfides, sulfites and carbonate formed by fusing potassium carbonate with elemental sulfur. KBT uses potassium polysufide which is approximated by the formula K2S5. Use T-8 as recommended FS and avoid tinkering. Yes I know that APUGers like to tinker and modify. But avoid the urge.

In case the answer might have been missed in the above paragraph, you cannot use T-8 to make Rudman's version of Kodak Polytoner.

 

[KD4x5]

Hi Gerald, thanks so much for your response and insights on the matter.

I'll admit to being a bit confused because Tim Rudman's book and my chemical supplier have said that potassium polysulphide and liver of sulphide are used interchangeably in photographic chemistry. They also relay that potassium polysulphide is pretty much always made up of several components which are normally referred to as K2Sx. Rudman cites these inconsistencies as being the reason for variations among batches of the Kodak Brown Toner which seemed to suggest that too used liver of sulphur as its polysulphide component. Is this potentially a typo or misinformation?

Additionally are you aware of a specific formula for the Kodak Brown toner? I have been unable to find a specific breakdown and Kodak has removed a lot of the tech publications and MSDS sheets.

I have also worked with, made and modified many types of photographic chemistry and am curious about your advice regarding "tinkering" and why it should be avoided. I am aware of it's potential to release hydrogen sulphide gas and have a safe workspace to handle such chemicals, is there a safety concern with using a rapid selenium toner as an additive?

Not trying to specifically make the Polytoner but rather understand the potential alterations to the T-8 to vary the results of the toner.

Thanks again for the information and advice as most of the information regarding the discontinued Polysulphide toners has proven a bit vague and hard to come by.

 

[MattKing]

Courtesy of Tim Gray's excellent 125px site: http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/Kodak_formulary.pdf

 

[Gerald C Koch]

First potassium polysulfide is not the same entity as liver of sulfur. The polysulfide is easily prepared by dissolving sulfur in a saturated solution of potassium sulfide until no more sulfur will dissolve. This has to be done gradually as there is a little explosion upon each addition. The result is a thick brown solution about the consistency of honey that smells strongly of hydrogen sulfide. The ability of sulfur to form chains of sulfur atoms is limited to about six atoms. Therefor it is usual to consider that when prepared the formula K2S5 is a good approximation of what is present. This is a bit easier to write than perhaps a more accurate notaton K2Sn where n = 2 to 6. One the other hand liver of sulfur is of somewhat unknown composition. All in all he two compounds produce a somewhat different brown color when used in toners.

Kodak T-8 Toner

Distilled water (50°C) …………………………………………… 750 ml
Liver of sulfur …………………………………………………………… 7.5 g
Sodium carbonate (anhy) ………………………………………… 2.0 g
Distilled water to make ………………………………………… 1.0 l

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

I've been looking for a good KBT replacement. I stocked up on this when it started to get hard to find (and especially ship).

 

[DWThomas]

I've been looking for a good KBT replacement. I stocked up on this when it started to get hard to find (and especially ship).

Freestyle carries a brown toner in their "Legacy" selection that seems pretty similar; I have transitioned to it without much problem.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I pass along the following story and idea. The evening before I wanted to enter a print in a show I decided that the image would look better toned brown instead of black. Sadly all the local photo stores were closed. I knew that sulfur would probably react with sodium hydroxide. So I mixed equal amounts of each with a drop of water. Stirring the mixture it began to turn orange and then brown and really started to heat up. I quickly made up an ice bath in order to keep the reaction under control and continued stirring. When the reaction subsided I added some water to form a brown solution. A test print was toned a lovely chocolate brown in about a minute or so. I toned my contest print and got some good reviews at the show the next day. The resulting solution was probably similar in composition to what is found in liver of sulfur. Probably a mixture of sulfides and sulfites.

I very seldom tone prints and so have not pursued the matter further to determine that correct proportion of hydroxide to sulfur. Anyone interested is welcome to follow the idea further.