Symmar 100mm f5,6

Hi all,
I recently got hold of a durst m800 to get back printing up to 6x6 negatives and it's almost in working order now.
The enlarger came with a Symmar 100mm lens, which I assume can be used for 6X7-6X9 negatives, which I'd like to give a try to at some point.

I've never seen this lens mentioned for enlarging before. It seems a nice piece of glass. Anyone heard of it for this purpose? It screws on one of the holder plates.

negativefunk said:

Hi all,
I recently got hold of a durst m800 to get back printing up to 6x6 negatives and it's almost in working order now.
The enlarger came with a Symmar 100mm lens, which I assume can be used for 6X7-6X9 negatives, which I'd like to give a try to at some point.

I've never seen this lens mentioned for enlarging before. It seems a nice piece of glass. Anyone heard of it for this purpose? It screws on one of the holder plates.

Click to expand...

The Symmar is a taking lens, not an enlarging lens. The Componon is the equivalent enlarging lens.

Since you have a Symmar, you ought to try it out with, yes, 2 1/4 x 2 3 1/4 or 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 negatives. The prints might satisfy you, they might not. Finding out isn't very expensive.

Thank you. I saw it mentioned in the large format forums so I thought it could be the case.
I have already two good 50mm and 80mm for enlarging. I will give it a try out of curiosity the same but perhaps it's one for the future

If the Symmar has a shutter, you could also use it to make internegatives.

Like this? Looks like it is packaged as an enlarging lens to me.

It does look like that one, a bit more used (but better than it appears in the pic).
only solution is trying it out I think

That's definitely an enlarging lens. I can't find it in any of my literature, but I can't find my Schneider Xenon 28mm f2.0 enlarging lens in the literature either. I assume that neither of these lenses have a 40mm rear thread for use on a shutter.

ic-racer said:

Like this? Looks like it is packaged as an enlarging lens to me.
View attachment 313357

Click to expand...

Sorry, it is simply a lens in barrel. Schneider sold taking lenses in shutter and in barrel.

The thread fits the 39mm LAPLA board of my enlarger so I will just have to try it. It could be a nice excuse to look for a 6X9 folding of some kind at some point

Just for confusion's sake, the distinction between enlarging, process, and taking lenses isn't anything like clear-cut. It's a matter of optimization, and unless you have every single other factor completely nailed down, you probably won't be able to tell whether (like me) you enlarged that medium format negative with an 80/3.5 Anastar off a Kodak Reflex II, or (also like me) shot that 4x5 negative with a 150/5.6 Componon "enlarging" lens (or only the rear group of one, as about a 265/9).

Then again, what do I know? I also swear up and down an Agnar 105/4.5 triplet will cover 4x5 as long as it's stopped down and focused inside about twelve feet...

negativefunk said:

The thread fits the 39mm LAPLA board of my enlarger so I will just have to try it. It could be a nice excuse to look for a 6X9 folding of some kind at some point

Click to expand...

A Symmar with a 39mm thread. Very interesting.

Dan Fromm said:

Sorry, it is simply a lens in barrel. Schneider sold taking lenses in shutter and in barrel.

Click to expand...

...to use in an enlarger presumably. How would one focus the lens on a Leica 35mm camera?

It is also convertible. Remove the front element and use the green f stop scale. Good for portraits a little soft.

I agree with Donald in that at my current level I won't be able to really judge how "appropriate" that lens is. In little more than one week though I'll try printing with it and I should be able to at least say whether it works or not

ic-racer said:

...to use in an enlarger presumably. How would one focus the lens on a Leica 35mm camera?

Click to expand...

Sigh. Stop speculating, read Schneider's lens documentation.

I have a couple of these I've obtained for peanuts. Great highly under rated taking lenses. I use 'em on my 2x3 Sinar Norma with the Norma Shutter. Exceptional. Later on they made them in black finish. Highly recommended. BTW The enlarging sister to this lens (and designed for enlarging) is the exceptional chrome barrel COMPONON. Side by side I'll bet you can't tell them apart. Very similar in design Also available for peanuts. I paid $25 for my chrome 100mm Componon. Then I bought another one for my TLR Normas.

Will prolly work great for making small prints

So how did it work out for you?

I'll be able to test it only in a little more than one week I am afraid, as we're leaving for the holidays. I literally just redeployed the darkroom after hunting for some bits and pieces for my M800.
Will update though!

So I finally got round to trying it, with several temporary solutions to make the enlarger works (they seem to hold).

The short of it is that, for my level of proficiency, the symmar works perfectly well as an enlarger lens. on a 10x12 print of a cropped 6x6 negative, I almost can't see any difference with the componon 80mm. I say almost, as it seems to be less contrasty compared with the componon, and to achieve a similar result I jumped up from contrast filter #1 to #2. However, there seem to be some cloudiness in the symmar so perhaps it's that. I printed with condensers.

The long version comes with some caveats. I have not been printing for 10+ years, and this was my first (7hrs long) session since. I am back to square 1 learning.
The main takeaway for me is that I really should use a tripod. "I can hold 1/60" seems a tad delusional on my end.

I did get stubborn on this print, and even considering the paper I wasted there are a number of things I now see I could have done better or more carefully, and things I didn't even think of when I was printing.
The photo does not remotely deserve this level of attention anyway so there's that.

For example, I had to burn significantly (very significantly on the componon- like 1 third of the total exposure time, less so on the symmar - i guess because of contrast) the right hand side where the human figure is. In hindsight, I should have probably burnt even more on the right hand side rock, and possibly with an even lower contrast level. there's a shadow zone too where I would have liked to try "dodging" a bit instead to lift up the tone.

The below is a photo of the print and a bad one at that. The rocks on the left are roughly in zone 3 with details visible..I don't really know how to take pictures of prints.
On the left, a contrast 2 componon print of the scene (plagued by light leaks in the sky as the tape fell). on the right the symmar exposure test at contrast 2



This is the final print from the symmar - again, rocks are less dark on paper



Overall though, I had good fun. The lens is good enough for me (when I'll go beyond 6x6, that is). I find the contrast hardly manageable with condensers and the componon and I am a little perplexed so I will maybe try to use the colour head, although the timer caught fire last time I tried. Maybe I could also try to develop for condenser, if this is even a thing, but it sounds like complicating things. Also, I am shopping for a tripod.

Another shot on the same-ish spot, printed with the symmar, that I like a little bit better:

Dan Fromm said:

Sigh. Stop speculating, read Schneider's lens documentation

Click to expand...

...which indicates the enlarging lenses are marketed in barrels. No speculation, I posted a picture in post #5.

I reads as if you repeating what you read on the internet or what someone else told you.

ic-racer said:

...which indicates the enlarging lenses are marketed in barrels. No speculation, I posted a picture in post #5.

I reads as if you repeating what you read on the internet or what someone else told you.

Click to expand...

Well, I've bought Symmars in barrel, various vintages of Componon in barrel, and Comparons in barrel. They all agree with Schneider's documentation, which isn't quite the same as what I read on the internet or what someone else told me. Primary sources ...

Symmars in barrel were sold to photographers that owned graflex cameras with focal plane shutters. It is a taking lens and is convertible. I purchased a set of Schneider lenses and his speed graphic from the estate of a photographer. Angulon 90mm, symmars of various lengths and roll film backs. It was a nice set up. Componons were for enlarger use or copying and were supplied in shutters.

ic-racer said:

Like this? Looks like it is packaged as an enlarging lens to me.
View attachment 313357

Click to expand...

In Schneider brochures many of their lenses were once available in these barrels, that includes Xenars. Xenotars, Symmars, Tele-Xenars etc.

Look in this brochure the illustration for a Xenar is of the slightly older barrel. Symmars were never sold as enlarger lenses.

Ian

Symmars can be used for enlarging purposes. The major difference is that Componons have less spherical aberration and are thus easier to focus while Symmars make a lot more beautiful out of focus rendition as taking lenses.

Schneider Symmar Lenses by Nokton48, on Flickr

Dan, I'm all for solidarity among Dans. And naturally all of us have awesome powers. That said, we can do nothing about invincible ignorance.

Cheers,

Dan