Switching to RC paper

Chazzy said:

On this general subject of RC print surfaces, I wish that other manufacturers would follow Foma's lead and sell a swatch book. It stinks to have to buy a box of paper to find out what a manufacturer's interpretation of "matte" or "semi-matte" is.

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Where do I get such a book?

All the companies used to make them. I last saw that Forte made one but it was on the order of $30 or so.

All the paper companies made them once upon a time. A company like Freestyle is large enough to make their own.

It's really tough to make decisions on paper surface and tints from mere verbiage.

aluk said:

I remember being shocked when I moved to Montreal and discovered that water is not metered - i.e. you pay a flat fee through your taxes and have unlimited water consumption.... I suspect that doesn't provide people much incentive to conserve the stuff!

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That's the way it was in the old parts of Longmont, Colorado back in the 70's. No meters. The federal government is now mandating meters on all residential customers, whether new or upgrades. Yeah, that was nice.

They also had an unusual electrical system. Every home had the porch light wired in before the meter and it was a law that you turned it on at dusk and left it on. The homeowner paid nothing and the city got better lit residential streets.

RC paper is not even close to fiber-based paper for look, tone, and overall quality. Rather than stop using it for "environmental reasons", why not save water in all the other areas of your life? Shorten showers, don't wash the car, low-flushes, etc., will do more to save water than not running your print washer at a gallon or two per minute for an hour. It does not take all that much water to wash prints archivally as long as you use a good wash-aid and don't over-do the water flow.

I would skip that Saturday hot bath or two showers/week before I'd give up fiber-based paper!

As mentioned earlier, using TF-4 fixer for short fiber fix times (60 seconds) results in not much to wash out, and don't forget that Ctein (if I'm not mistaken, or was it Vestal?) said that diffusion, IOW, soaking of the print with a few changes of water was BETTER than washing it to kingdom come...

I try to be environmentally conscious, but RC paper? C'mon now...;-)

PVA, I believe it was Vestal!

PVia, I believe it was Vestal!

Dear All,

The RC v FB paper debate is difficult it all depends what happens to the water afterward ( is it re-cycled ) back into usable water, in the UK lots is...the old joke is that a glass of London tap water has already been through 5 Londoners!... I believe this is almost true ! for those thinking of visiting London tap water is absolutely AOK to drink....honest.

So is the water wasted ? No, so use the ILFORD ( or other ) wash regimes to reduce as much as possible regardless of whether you are metered or not, it makes sense to use as little as possible.

As to swatch books, we do make them and make them available to resellers, they are HUGELY expensive, each one costs in the region of £ 18.63 to make : We could possibly make them available to sell, How many would be willing to pay the price ? ...not very many I guess.

Regards

Simon. ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

I too think that with tray washing of prints, you can reduce your water use to a very reasonable volume. With wash aids you can really shorten wash time, and with fixers such as TF-4 from the Formulary, or even Hypam from Ilford (non-hardening) used at film strength, you only have to fix your prints for a minute. That makes it easy to wash out again.
I reason like this - if it's a print that's for myself I wash with Heico Permawash or Kodak HCA. Then I wash that out of the emulsion with a couple of tray rinses of 5 minutes each. Then I put it in a siphon washer for 20 minutes with a wash rate of about 1gallon per minute. If it's a print I sell or give to somebody else, I wash it for longer in the siphon.

Using this washing regimen I don't use much more water for fiber based prints than I do RC ones.

- Thomas

After fixing in TF-4, I tray wash my fiber prints. I fill a 12x16 inch tray with (3) 8x10s and about one inch of water. I complete the wash after 6/7 water exchanges over 20 min. I don't consider the water use as excessive.

Ilford’s MGIV WT, RC pearl has a surface finish similar to fiber and a similar richness after selenium toned.

RC often does not separate low tones as well as fiber. It takes time to get good prints. Use the best materials.

Simon R Galley said:

As to swatch books, we do make them and make them available to resellers, they are HUGELY expensive, each one costs in the region of £ 18.63 to make : We could possibly make them available to sell, How many would be willing to pay the price ? ...not very many I guess.

Regards

Simon. ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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Simon, I would like one - how do we go about buying them

My thinking is - it’s a heck of a lot cheaper than buying boxes of paper - which I may quickly decide I don't like the colour or the finish or what ever else.

I like to only change materials in carefully considered steps - so jumping around from product A to product B isn't something I do lightly - but I am always left with that niggling thought - is there something a little better (more to my taste) just round the corner ?

Many thanks

Martin

Simon R Galley said:

... As to swatch books, we do make them and make them available to resellers, they are HUGELY expensive, each one costs in the region of £ 18.63 to make : We could possibly make them available to sell, How many would be willing to pay the price ? ...not very many I guess. ...

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I would...

Those making prints on RC must content themselves with self satisfaction.
When one's children take these masterpieces to the gallery hoping to become instant milionaires they will get a polite rejection.
At least that's how I feel while I have the flu this week
Mark

Mark Layne said:

Those making prints on RC must content themselves with self satisfaction.
When one's children take these masterpieces to the gallery hoping to become instant milionaires they will get a polite rejection.
At least that's how I feel while I have the flu this week
Mark

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hate to say this, but according to the folks
at the image permemance institute
rc paper is just as stable ( if not more ) than fiber paper.

galleries do not reject rc prints, look at the color work being sold in galleries.
all of it is RC, or inky. i am sure one would suggest galleries cringing,
at a photographer putting adhesive tape tape or other stuff
on photographs, but the starn twins do
this, and have been selling them through galleries for the past 20 years ...

jnanian said:

hate to say this, but according to the folks
at the image permemance institute
rc paper is just as stable ( if not more ) than fiber paper.

galleries do not reject rc prints, look at the color work being sold in galleries.
all of it is RC, or inky. i am sure one would suggest galleries cringing,
at a photographer putting adhesive tape tape or other stuff
on photographs, but the starn twins do
this, and have been selling them through galleries for the past 20 years ...

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Yes admittedly aesthetics are reaching a new low

Mark Layne said:

Yes admittedly aesthetics are reaching a new low

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aesthetics has nothing to do with the permenance of rc paper
or the fact that galleries WILL look at RC prints ...
and not reject outright ( as you have suggested ).
i would be more worried about dry mounted prints than RC prints
... but that is another thread ...

have you ever seen the starns' work?
when i was in boston i saw their photographs all the time
they are pretty amazing ...

jnanian said:

aesthetics has nothing to do with the permenance of rc paper
or the fact that galleries WILL look at RC prints ...
and not reject outright ( as you have suggested ).
i would be more worried about dry mounted prints than RC prints
... but that is another thread ...

have you ever seen the starns' work?
when i was in boston i saw their photographs all the time
they are pretty amazing ...

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Aesthetics may have nothing to do with permanence but it certainly has lots to do with plastic paper. I just don't like it. No offence to those who are happy with it

Actually, I wish we were given the choice of a pure white polyester substrate instead of polyethylene-coated paper; such material is considered archival to a 500-year standard. I understand that at one time there was a color print material manufactured in Japan that was polyester-based rather than paper.

~Joe

Going back to water useage. Many houses in the UK are not metered - you just pay a flat rate "water rates" based on the size of your house - mine is about £160 a year. I believe new houses are probably fitted with metres as standard, and the water companies always try to persuade you to go on a meter (they can't force you), but it is rarely cheaper to do this (from what I hear), even if you dont have a darkroom! Maybe if you are living alone in a very large house, then a meter would be cheaper.

Joe VanCleave said:

Actually, I wish we were given the choice of a pure white polyester substrate instead of polyethylene-coated paper

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Cibachrome/Ilfachrome. Coated on white Melinex. A Dupont tradename for a polyester product.

Might look good with a black and white emulsion on it.



Steve.

Matt5791 said:

Going back to water useage. Many houses in the UK are not metered - you just pay a flat rate "water rates" based on the size of your house - mine is about £160 a year. I believe new houses are probably fitted with meters as standard, and the water companies always try to persuade you to go on a meter (they can't force you).

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In the 1980s the Isle of Wight was one of a few places in Britain to have meters fitted to every house.

We didn't have a choice.



Steve.

I print both FB and RC (with Kentmere by the way), honestly I do most of my printing with RC and if there is something I really really like, I make a FB print.

As for paper I am very partial to Kentmere as the exposure times between Fineprint and VC Select are pretty much the same from my personal experience. As for the finish of papers I prefer glossy with the Fineprint and Finelustre with VC Select.

As for results, I like both and would hang either without hesitation.

For those who participate in the Postcard Exchange, my Round 15 postcard is on Oriental Seagull RC pearl surface, and I quite like it.

I also liked the 2 rolls of Tri-X 35mm 36 exp that came with the student pack .

Matt

Mark Layne said:

Those making prints on RC must content themselves with self satisfaction.
When one's children take these masterpieces to the gallery hoping to become instant milionaires they will get a polite rejection.
At least that's how I feel while I have the flu this week
Mark

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I would think the permanence of an image on RC paper would be better then fibre, simply because the chemistries do not get into the backing material, where they can hide and later attack the image. A greater issue is whether a print is processed with archival methods or not, and mounted using adhesives that are intended for archival photographic use. Properly mounted and framed behind glass, I doubt many experts could tell the difference between a fibre and RC print, even one that is 30 years old.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

I too think that with tray washing of prints, you can
reduce your water use to a very reasonable volume.

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A Very Very reasonable volume. TOTAL wash water each
8x10, ONE liter of water. CONDITIONS: After a fix which is to
be no stronger than paper strength, the print is to be rinsed
then given a HCA treatment. From there the print goes into
a hold/soak tray.

The hold soak tray prior to use is loaded with some water
and at bottom a separator is placed. The separator will assure
the presence of a layer of water on bottom of tray. And so the
stack of prints are placed in the hold/soak tray; water on
bottom, a separator, a print, a separator and so on with
a separator on top. Water is added as needed.

When the hold/soak tray is as full as it can or will be the
tray's water is transfered to a second tray. The water in it
is to be stirred some little. Separators and prints are peeled
from the first hold/soak tray to this second hold/soak tray.
Allow 10 to 30 minutes. More efficient use of water.

The empty first tray is now used for first wash in like manor;
fresh water at bottom and transfers from the second hold/soak
tray. Add fresh water as needed. I've allowed about a half hour
for each the first and transfer soaks of the first wash. The two
hold/soak cycles over again save for the time allowed.

Ditto the 2nd wash save for first cycle time; over night. Next
day do a transfer then allow a few minutes to soak. More of
an agitated rinse than anything else.

All and all a very routine procedure, easy to learn. I've been
using separators of somewhat thin non-woven polyester. Near
free from any fabric shop. Polyester is hydrophobic; does not
soak up water. It will trap some water so I do give a stack
some squeezing. Separators can be kept wet and ready.
I place, small ones in a tray and the large ones
rolled in a plastic bag.

The One liter each 8x10 is based upon processing five prints
through first and second wash. Some little more or less
might be used. The thickness of the separators is one
determining variable. Dan

Dear All,

Following the comments about making the ILFORD Photo paper swatch books available to purchase, I am now sorting out how best this can be arranged, I will post with details by the end of next week:

Simon: ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited