Suspicions about Paterson 5-reel tank

jon koss · Mar 18, 2005

Hmmm... I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I have always used Paterson 3-reel tanks. I am careful and consistent with every facet of my development regimen. As a result, for a couple of decades, I have always had consistent results. Finally, I just needed to get more film proceesed faster so I switched to a Paterson 5-reel tank. I have just finished my fourth 5-reel session and I am slowly starting to suspect that not all of the reels are seeing the same amount of development. I develop for 9.5 minutes in D-76 at 1:1 with three quick inversions every 30 seconds. Is this possible or am I just imagining things?

Thanks, JK

johnnywalker · Mar 18, 2005

I have the 5-reel tank, and use ID-11 (same D-76) 1+1 or 1+3. I do 4 slow inversions once a minute. No sign of uneven development so far, touch wood. I wait for the "glugging" to stop before doing the second half of the inversion. That doesn't happen quickly, so possibly your inversions are too rapid to completely mix the developer. Just a thought.

Ian Grant · Mar 19, 2005

Well I've been using the old system 4 Paterson 5 reel tanks for well over 25 years with no problems, using various developers including Rodinal & Xtol more recently. Secret is to get the developer poured in quickly, and use the locking ring as well particulary if less than 5 reels.

Have 2 of these 5 reel tanks, and numerous smaller sizes, also the largest which holds 7 or 8 35mm reels - I think it to risky putting all my films in this one and have never used it.

A good tip is to clean the reels by a prolonged soaking in Biological washing powder every so often, they load easier afterwards.

jon koss · Mar 19, 2005

johnnywalker said:
I have the 5-reel tank, and use ID-11 (same D-76) 1+1 or 1+3. I do 4 slow inversions once a minute. No sign of uneven development so far, touch wood. I wait for the "glugging" to stop before doing the second half of the inversion. That doesn't happen quickly, so possibly your inversions are too rapid to completely mix the developer. Just a thought.

Thank you for the idea. I went back to the 3-reel unit last night and noticed that my inversions are just the tiniest bit quicker than the "glugging" time. I am guessing that the glug time for the 5-reel unit is considerably longer, so I may have been shortchanging the intra-tank homogenization process considerably. When using the 5-reel setup, I will modify my inversions to allow for complete glugging cycles.

By the way, I did not mean to impugn the Paterson tanks in my original post. I have used them forever with excellent results. I am totally satisfied with them.
Thanks, JK

Jeremy · Mar 19, 2005

Everyone said:
"glugging"

Is this the scientific term?

Actually I use the same term to describe it, too.

johnnywalker · Mar 19, 2005

Jeremy Moore said:
Is this the scientific term?

From the Latin "gluger" (verb) to rapidly drink Roman beer so that the throat makes the sound of intermittant falling liquid. As an aside, the verb is irregular in the super pluperfect subjunctive.

Woolliscroft · Mar 19, 2005

I've never had trouble with these tanks. I would agree, though, that it is important to get the dev in and out quickly (and to get the right amount, just in case you were on 3 reel autopilot). You also need to bang them on the table (another technical term ) a bit more to get all the air bubbles to surface.

David.

George Papantoniou · Mar 23, 2005

We used to use a tank just like that in my school, back in the eighties. It took ages to fill it up and it weighed a ton, so by banging it on the table we finished by destroying it (the table, not the tank . Everyone wanted to use it, for it saved us time by allowing us to develop 5 films at a time, and noone cared about even results back then.
I'd never use a tank that takes more than 10secs to fill and drain now that I've become a neurotic perfectionist, though. I'll stick to my 2 reel Jobo tank and be more patient than I was in my youth. I would advise you to do the same, for if you aren't a neurotic perfectionist you'll become one later in your life ;-)

Tom Stanworth · Mar 23, 2005

I'll second the slow inversions to allow full mixing. I also tap the base hard on a hard surface as it seems more prone to trapped air bells than smaller tanks. Nice slow inversions that allow the gluggs to subside and a few hard bangs on the bench and all is well. compared to the UK Jessops tanks, the paterson is much leakier too f I am generous with solution.

Tom

Dave Miller · Mar 23, 2005

As an aside, I find that the trick with the Paterson tanks is to press the centre of the soft top cap whilst lifting the edge a little to let the air escape. This leaves a slight negative pressure within the tank, which reduces leakage to a minimum. I quite agree about the Glug time govening the inversion rate, it's very important to give the liquid time to settle. In the 8 reel tank this is about 30 seconds.

FrankB · Mar 23, 2005

Eight reels in one go?! Blimey, you lot are brave!

I'm an abject coward that doesn't use his three-reel tank and uses his two-reel tank at the most (ever since that nerve-wracking day when I couldn't remember which jug held the Hypam and which held the Ilfotol! (Yes, they are now labelled!)).

Dave Miller · Mar 23, 2005

It’s not quite that bad Frank, since the 8 reel tank only holds five 120 reels. However when I learn how to get two films on one reel, I can then do 10 films at a time; and still get nothing worth printing!

Paul Sorensen · Mar 23, 2005

Ian Grant said:
A good tip is to clean the reels by a prolonged soaking in Biological washing powder every so often, they load easier afterwards.

Ian, not to hijack the thread, but what is the cleaner you are using? I could use something to clean the reels in my community darkroom with and a prolonged soaking sounds better than prolonged scrubbing. Thanks!

FrankB · Mar 23, 2005

Sell that one somewhere else, Dave! I've *seen* your prints!

Dave Miller · Mar 23, 2005

FrankB said:
Sell that one somewhere else, Dave! I've *seen* your prints!

Sometimes I get lucky.

Kevin Caulfield · Mar 23, 2005

Dave, I believe the technical term for this pressing of the cap whilst lifting the edge to let the air escape is "burping" the tank.

Dave Miller · Mar 24, 2005

Kevin, here in the Homeland, some of us of a certain age, are still a little sensitive about the use of such terms. However, I must concede that, in this instance, it would seem to be an appropriate description of an essential operation.

jon koss · Mar 25, 2005

George Papantoniou said:
... I'd never use a tank that takes more than 10secs to fill and drain now that I've become a neurotic perfectionist, though. I'll stick to my 2 reel Jobo tank and be more patient than I was in my youth. I would advise you to do the same, for if you aren't a neurotic perfectionist you'll become one later in your life ;-)

Too late... I am already obsessive about cleanliness, temperature control, exact repetition, etc. Just the jump from 3 reels to 5 was more than my brittle psyche could bear. I am back to the 3-banger. This is more than idle musing for me. I am falling further and further behind on developing. I have probably 100 rolls in the fridge that need souping. A typical night yields three rolls; a super night yields six. I cannot develop every night so I have a good three months worth of work in front of me. Of course in those three months I will add more rolls to the wrong side of the ledger! Egads, I may never catch up!!
jk

George Papantoniou · Mar 30, 2005

Well, Jon, I'm glad that you're alraeary on our side, that saves you time... As for the undeveloped film, don't worry... there's another guy that had the same problem, he was called Gary Winogrand ;-)
There is a solution th this problem, it's called large format. You shoot less and you get more good pictures.
Gary W bought a LF camera but never got to use it. His addiction to his Leica was too strong you see, and he never got to shake it before he died.

edz · Mar 30, 2005

jon koss said:
Hmmm... I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I have always used Paterson 3-reel tanks. I am careful and consistent with every facet of my development regimen. As a result, for a couple of decades, I have always had consistent results. Finally, I just needed to get more film proceesed faster so I switched to a Paterson 5-reel tank.

In the Paterson system I have the 5 and 8 reel tanks. I got the tanks to use with the Paterson reels I got for my Nova dip-and-dunk (my Jobo 1500 series reels don't quite fit the core).

I have just finished my fourth 5-reel session and I am slowly starting to suspect that not all of the reels are seeing the same amount of development. I develop for 9.5 minutes in D-76 at 1:1 with three quick inversions every 30 seconds. Is this possible or am I just imagining things?

You don't mention which film. Its important since not all films work well with D76 1+1.
With D-76 1+1:
- 30 seconds continuous agitation
Since you are diluting you probably want to move to a 60 sec. inversion. Depending upon film its 2x or 3x every 60 seconds.

IMPORTANT : Make sure that you use enough developer in the tank. For each 120 reel that's 500ml. I tend to use a bit more and grab for a larger tank than the number of reels I'm processing (why I have the 8-reel).

jon koss · Mar 30, 2005

edz said:
...You don't mention which film...

Did not realize there were others than Tri-X! (Ho ho).
jk

Suspicions about Paterson 5-reel tank

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