Surprised by amount of film fog

[Alan9940]

I've had a box of 4x5 Fomapan 100 stored in the bottom of a fridge for a few years now; expired 09-2018. I haven't used it for over a year, but shot a few sheets a couple days ago. I was surprised to see how much fog the film rebate revealed. I measured a sheet from back when it was "fresh outta da box" and one of the sheets from the other day--0.11 density for the former and .57 - .60 density for the latter! This film is only 2 years beyond the expiry date. The only time I've ever seen this level of fog is when I was gifted a box of Ilford HP5+ that was significantly past its expiry date and of unknown storage conditions. Just curious if others have seen this level of fog from somewhat recent expired film?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Does this fridge contain food items, chemicals, or only film? What temperature is it set at? What developer did you use, then and now? Mixed with tap water, filtered, or distilled? Live near a nuclear plant?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have boxes of 4x5 HP5 that expired 2007, that measure about .30 B+F density. Usually it's around .08. Doesn't bother me, as I just print through it.
A few years ago, I shot a fresh 120 roll of Bergger Panchro 400 that exhibited high level of base fog... like around .65. it still made a lovely (hybrid) carbon transfer print, though. If there was that much fog on an 8x10 sheet, I would not be able to make an analogue carbon transfer print.
I've got some 4x5 Kodak HIE that expired in 1967, that only have about a .36 B+F. It still makes gorgeous images.
The Acros that I have in the freezer expires this year. The fog levels are still normal.
Maybe some films fair better than others...and some developers exacerbate it... I use pyrocat-hd, so that fog is also stained somewhat, which makes it harder to print through with most alt processes... A wee bit of benzotriazole (about 1% solution) added to your developer will help reduce the fog... but probably at the expense of film speed.

 

[Donald Qualls]

There's an article (can't link it, don't have the link on this computer) about using cold development plus benzotriazole to make "fogged beyond all use" film into "clean looking, if slow". Generally, the warmer you develop, or the more active the developer, the more fog you'll see. That author's solution was to use ice as part of the dilution water, to cool the developer to near 50F (don't do this with a hydroquinone soup, it'll drop activity very sharply below 60F); combined with a few drops of 1% BZT solution, he gets some beautiful clear rebates.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

There's an article (can't link it, don't have the link on this computer) about using cold development plus benzotriazole to make "fogged beyond all use" film into "clean looking, if slow". Generally, the warmer you develop, or the more active the developer, the more fog you'll see. That author's solution was to use ice as part of the dilution water, to cool the developer to near 50F (don't do this with a hydroquinone soup, it'll drop activity very sharply below 60F); combined with a few drops of 1% BZT solution, he gets some beautiful clear rebates.

Yes! I remember reading that same article, and in fact I tried it soon after reading it. It worked really well. I gave stand development. Left the film in the tank in the fridge over night. Very little fog.

 

[Alan9940]

Does this fridge contain food items, chemicals, or only film? What temperature is it set at? What developer did you use, then and now? Mixed with tap water, filtered, or distilled? Live near a nuclear plant?

The fridge contains containers of raw chemicals, runs at about 50F, and the Foma box was in a plastic drawer on the bottom. I tried two different developers--Mytol and Sprint--think, maybe, my Sprint developer had issues, but the Mytol was just recently mixed. Both formulas revealed nearly the same level of fog. The older sheet was probably developed in D-76 at 1:1. I mix all my chemistry with RO water, wash with tap water, and final rinse with distilled water. No, I don't live near a nuclear plant.

 

[Alan9940]

There's an article (can't link it, don't have the link on this computer) about using cold development plus benzotriazole to make "fogged beyond all use" film into "clean looking, if slow". Generally, the warmer you develop, or the more active the developer, the more fog you'll see. That author's solution was to use ice as part of the dilution water, to cool the developer to near 50F (don't do this with a hydroquinone soup, it'll drop activity very sharply below 60F); combined with a few drops of 1% BZT solution, he gets some beautiful clear rebates.

Yeah, I was thinking the same because I got lazy and developed the film at 75F; we're still running daily highs around 104F! Therefore, my indoor temp is still pretty warm. Just for the heck of it I'm gonna try a sheet at max 68F or, maybe, cool it down a bit further, as suggested, and see what that yields. I've printed through some fairly high B+F in the past so I'm not too worried about it, but I was curious what others thought and/or experiences.

Thanks!

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'll be interested in what you get with the cold developer.

I asked about other things in the fridge because some foods, and some raw chemicals stored with the film could contribute to fogging, especially since (unlike, say, a 35mm film can or the foil wrap on a 120 roll) an opened box and inner bag of sheet film is no longer airtight.

 

[Alan9940]

There's an article (can't link it, don't have the link on this computer) about using cold development plus benzotriazole to make "fogged beyond all use" film into "clean looking, if slow". Generally, the warmer you develop, or the more active the developer, the more fog you'll see. That author's solution was to use ice as part of the dilution water, to cool the developer to near 50F (don't do this with a hydroquinone soup, it'll drop activity very sharply below 60F); combined with a few drops of 1% BZT solution, he gets some beautiful clear rebates.

Ran another test, yesterday. Didn't drop the developer temp all the way to 50F because I was concerned about chemical failure at that temp. So, I dropped it to 64F to start, but, since the darkroom temp was 77F I doubt it stayed there for too long; probably rose about 2-3 degrees over the development time. Anyway, the cooler development did reduce the FB+F density from 0.57 to 0.43. Certainly not a significant change, but your suggestion did reveal a positive result. Thank you for the input.

I'm thinking now that as much as I like Fomapan 100 for LF photography I may stop using it because it appears that fog becomes a real issue with this film, even shortly after its expiration date and regardless of how it's stored. I've never had this issue with Ilford film, other than one box of unknown storage condition and significantly expired HP-5+ that I was gifted. It will be interesting to see if the expired 8x10 film I have in the freezer reveals this level of fog. Guess I better get out there and start shooting this stuff up!

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've been shooting (Freestyle rebranded) Fomapan 400 (120 format) that was stored at room temperature for in excess of ten years, and processing that same film that had sat after exposure the same time and same conditions, and haven't seen high fog at all. Now, maybe Fomapan 100 is different, but this doesn't seem to be something specific to Fomapan.

It's tempting to suggest that something in your storage is affecting film that isn't stored in airtight packaging. I've seen the characteristic mottling (humidity induces loss of sensitizers into the backing, I think, given it's dark in the positive and pretty random) in a couple rolls that were stored in 120 film cans without their foil wrap over that time, but the still-wrapped rolls differed from new only in more persistent curl.

 

[Alan9940]

I've been shooting (Freestyle rebranded) Fomapan 400 (120 format) that was stored at room temperature for in excess of ten years, and processing that same film that had sat after exposure the same time and same conditions, and haven't seen high fog at all. Now, maybe Fomapan 100 is different, but this doesn't seem to be something specific to Fomapan.

Yeah, I've been shooting Foma film for years and never had this fogging issue. I think you may be correct in that it's something other than the film that's the problem. I will know, for sure, once I dig back into my 8x10 Fomapan 100 that's in the freezer. Thinking it might be something to do with the chemicals in the fridge, I've moved the little bit of film I had in there to the freezer.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Freezer and fridge aren't separated in terms of airflow, though, at least in any fridge new enough to be frost-free. The cooling is all in one central location, freezer temp is controlled directly by a thermostat, and fridge temp is controlled by limiting the amount of air exchange between the two compartments -- but that value is never zero, or the fridge wouldn't stay colder than the outside. If you have chemicals that are fogging your film, they may do it slower when the film is in the freezer, but the only real protection they'd have is airtight packaging.

EDIT: it might be worth your while to buy a little dorm fridge or mini-freezer to be able to separate your film from your chemicals.

 

[Aviv]

There's an article (can't link it, don't have the link on this computer) about using cold development plus benzotriazole to make "fogged beyond all use" film into "clean looking, if slow". Generally, the warmer you develop, or the more active the developer, the more fog you'll see. That author's solution was to use ice as part of the dilution water, to cool the developer to near 50F (don't do this with a hydroquinone soup, it'll drop activity very sharply below 60F); combined with a few drops of 1% BZT solution, he gets some beautiful clear rebates.

I believe this is the article you are referring to: https://www.diyphotography.net/how-i-removed-base-fog-from-old-film-stocks/

I have some extremely fogged rolls of HIE I'd like to try this on. I'm hoping this technique will give me something salvageable.

 

[Donald Qualls]

@Aviv Yes, that's the one. There was one roll he couldn't salvage, but even some that were pretty bad came up with reasonably clear rebates. Contrast looked a little, um, odd on one example, but that may be better than throwing away otherwise usable film -- a couple rolls and it should be possible to learn to compensate.

 

[Alan9940]

Freezer and fridge aren't separated in terms of airflow, though, at least in any fridge new enough to be frost-free.

Thanks for mentioning that, but I have a separate chest-style freezer.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Thanks for mentioning that, but I have a separate chest-style freezer.

Well, then, that solves that problem...

 

[Alan9940]

I believe this is the article you are referring to: https://www.diyphotography.net/how-i-removed-base-fog-from-old-film-stocks/

I have some extremely fogged rolls of HIE I'd like to try this on. I'm hoping this technique will give me something salvageable.

I found that article through a Google search this morning. I will certainly keep his technique in mind, but after seeing his examples I've decided my film ain't that bad and I can easily print through the fog. I'll know when temps finally cool off around here allowing ambient temp in my darkroom to drop to some reasonable level.

 

[Athiril]

I agree with the benzotriazole, thats all you need, start with a certain amount at normal development, and then increase or decrease from there, then adjust development time if needed.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I have been shooting some old 5222 from about 2003. I use 10ml/l of 2% Benzo and it cleans it right up without much of a speed punishment. That would probably do it for you.