Surprise at the local camera shop yesterday.............

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

When I'm in the big city (Grand Rapids, MI) I try to stop at Norman's Camera to look around. Well, I found out not long ago that their used film camera display no longer is there and they only handle digital now. They did have a fair selection of Ilford papers, but almost no chemicals. They stopped handling all Kodak chemical too. Or so I was told. So I ask about some B&W film. They had both Ilford and Kodak at least. So, I bought some HP5+ and some FP4+ just to make the trip worth something. My surprise was the pricing of the two. I know FP4+ goes for a little more than HP5+, but this store seemed way out of whack. HP5+ was $4.29 and FP4+ was $5.75 at Norman's. B&H has HP5+ at $4.09 and FP4+ at $4.39. The HP5+ price is close enough to warrant buying more at Norman's, but I'll lay off the FP4+ from them. Next time I go there I'll ask why the big difference. I always try to buy some stuff local since it's the last place I can buy 120 roll film in the second largest city in Michigan. That's a shame! John W

frank · Oct 22, 2014

The higher price of film at a bricks and mortar store compared to an Internet mail order store is easily understandable, no?

mgb74 · Oct 22, 2014

frank said:
The higher price of film at a bricks and mortar store compared to an Internet mail order store is easily understandable, no?

I think the OPs point was the differential between FP4+ and HP5+, not the difference between mail order and local store.

frank · Oct 22, 2014

Simply a manager's pricing whim then.

Simon R Galley · Oct 22, 2014

Historically in 35mm FP4+ was a higher price than HP5+ in the USA only, as was also PLUS-X versus TRI-X : The USA being a predominantly 400iso market versus a 100iso market.

Worldwide, HARMAN technology Limited sell FP4+ and HP5+ for the same price into distributors, it was therefore decided a year ago to reduce the selling price of FP4+ in 35mm in the USA to the same price as HP5+. This has taken sometime to reflect in the market as resellers use up stock etc, but they should be the same or al teast within cents for sure.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

BrianShaw · Oct 22, 2014

I have always paid more for FP-4 than HP-5 and wondered why, especially since they put a lot less ISO into that formulation.

pdeeh · Oct 22, 2014

Small ISOs are more expensive than the bigger ISOs, it's a supply problem

pbromaghin · Oct 22, 2014

pdeeh said:
Small ISOs are more expensive than the bigger ISOs, it's a supply problem

Yes, you have greater economies of scale when you make your ISOs bigger. Lower handling, shipping and labor costs per ISO unit, etc. Larger packages are a bit more difficult for the ultimate consumer, though. I can easily use 15 or 20 400 ISO films before finishing a single 3200 ISO film. 100 ISO veritably flies through my camera on the rare occasion I can afford the high per-unit cost.

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

mgb74 said:
I think the OPs point was the differential between FP4+ and HP5+, not the difference between mail order and local store.

Yes, I know that FP4+ is always a little more than HP5+, but $1.46 more for FP4+ is a little out of whack I think. Norman's HP5+ price is well within the ballpark, but the FP4+ price they charge is out of this world as far as I'm concerned. Like I said, the next time I'm there I will ask for an explanation as to why. Just curious? John W

Xmas · Oct 22, 2014

http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Ilford-PanF/products/177/

PanF is the nicest film and only a little more expensive than FP4+ in my brick shop.

Terry Breedlove · Oct 22, 2014

I remember years ago now about 1996 I went into a local store that i had been buying film from for years. I told them I like buying my Tmax 100 there because it is so much cheaper than anywhere else. The very next week I went back into by more and the price was way up. Lesson learned

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

Xmas said:
http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Ilford-PanF/products/177/

PanF is the nicest film and only a little more expensive than FP4+ in my brick shop.

PanF is my favorite B&W film if speed allows. Most of the time speed does allow, but sometimes it doesn't. With medium format the faster films are fine for most of my shots, but there's still something about PanF in Perceptol that really makes me smile. Not a combo for everyone, but I like it. John W

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

Terry Breedlove said:
I remember years ago now about 1996 I went into a local store that i had been buying film from for years. I told them I like buying my Tmax 100 there because it is so much cheaper than anywhere else. The very next week I went back into by more and the price was way up. Lesson learned

Don't you just love greed? I bet you didn't buy anymore Tmax 100 from them just on GP. I've had that kind of thing happen also. Once with a person I thought was my friend. Oh, he's also no longer my friend either. John W

MattKing · Oct 22, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
Don't you just love greed? I bet you didn't buy anymore Tmax 100 from them just on GP. I've had that kind of thing happen also. Once with a person I thought was my friend. Oh, he's also no longer my friend either. John W

It isn't necessarily greed.

I've spent enough time working retail to know that people who put price tags on inventory or program cash registers are far from perfect.

pbromaghin · Oct 22, 2014

It is not greed to adjust one's prices to keep within a desired relationship to competitor prices. It is most certainly greed to expect a seller to price his product lower than he needs to and to buy lots of the product before he finds out he is underpricing it.

BrianShaw · Oct 22, 2014

Good point - greed happens on both sides of the counter!

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

pbromaghin said:
It is not greed to adjust one's prices to keep within a desired relationship to competitor prices. It is most certainly greed to expect a seller to price his product lower than he needs to and to buy lots of the product before he finds out he is underpricing it.

I understand what you are saying, but there is also a lot of gouging out there too. All you have to do is watch the big oil companies laugh all the way to the off-shore bank. Oh, they laugh even harder when we give them a check to go find more oil that they've already found. I guess I'm just to honest to be in the retail business in this day and age. You are right that John Q. Public can screw you too. Back to the original post.....................why $1.46 difference between HP5+ 120 and FP4+ 120? I did look at the exp. dates and the HP5+ is Dec. 2016 and the FP4+ is APR. 2018. Maybe it was a markup to them for the newer FP4+? John W

M Carter · Oct 22, 2014

One could assume that the large online retailers are doing constant research, and that all their sales and stock data is being run through endless reports and comparisons and calculations. And meanwhile, small brick & mortars and mom & pops are pretty much winging it (and wondering shy they didn't sell in the 70's...)

Look at Amazon - if you have a prime membership (free two day shipping among other things), you also get the occasional free price hikes to make up for the free shipping. Often logging in with a non-prime account will return lower prices on Amazon-stocked items. I feel like they should buy me dinner (or at least a drink) if they're going to screw me...

pbromaghin · Oct 22, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
Back to the original post.....................why $1.46 difference between HP5+ 120 and FP4+ 120? I did look at the exp. dates and the HP5+ is Dec. 2016 and the FP4+ is APR. 2018. Maybe it was a markup to them for the newer FP4+? John W

That would make a lot of sense.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 22, 2014

Terry Breedlove said:
I remember years ago now about 1996 I went into a local store that i had been buying film from for years. I told them I like buying my Tmax 100 there because it is so much cheaper than anywhere else. The very next week I went back into by more and the price was way up. Lesson learned

I'm always amazed how many APUGposts are concerned with pricing.To me the mainissue in analog photography is availability not pricing.film is dirt cheap but hard to find locally.I would gladly pay $10/roll if I could get it within 10-minute driving distance.T makes no sense to discuss pricing for an item that is not for sale.Make sure it's available firstand let's support Ilford.They publically promised to stick around for usand so far...

JW PHOTO · Oct 22, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I'm always amazed how many APUGposts are concerned with pricing.To me the mainissue in analog photography is availability not pricing.film is dirt cheap but hard to find locally.I would gladly pay $10/roll if I could get it within 10-minute driving distance.T makes no sense to discuss pricing for an item that is not for sale.Make sure it's available firstand let's support Ilford.They publically promised to stick around for usand so far...

Ralph,
That's why I bought both HP5+ and FP4+ at the store. I would have paid the same price($5.75) for the HP5+ if needed. I did it because I miss the other six camera shops that have folded. I was only puzzled as to why the FP4+ was a whopping $1.46 more per roll. The only thing is that it's fresher dated and may have involved a recent price increase. No, I'm very happy to at least be able to travel only 25mi. or so and still buy roll film. John W

M Carter · Oct 23, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
Ralph,
That's why I bought both HP5+ and FP4+ at the store. I would have paid the same price($5.75) for the HP5+ if needed. I did it because I miss the other six camera shops that have folded. I was only puzzled as to why the FP4+ was a whopping $1.46 more per roll. The only thing is that it's fresher dated and may have involved a recent price increase. No, I'm very happy to at least be able to travel only 25mi. or so and still buy roll film. John W

A buck and a half just doesn't mean much to me when I look at the films I loved... LOVED... that are no more. EPP, 320t, the f*cking (excuse my french but this is an emotional subject) MIGHTY Polagraph 35 with the hand-crank processor and instant goodness - that film was simply EPIC stuff, gone forever. (I can't say enough about Polagraph. Bromoil, Lith, sure, awesome, but just pulling the Polagraph from the processor and seeing that delicate metallic emulsion and the total magic that film could do? And it's gone. Forever.) The wealth of pro polaroid we had back in the day. Type 55 negs. Jesus.

When I look at available films, I feel like some kind of war survivor. I'm shocked there are this many choices left. Could you imagine a world without paper and developer and fix? It seems like we came to the brink of that. I'm frankly amazed we still have the choices we do, without having to brew up liquid emulsions and smear 'em on surfaces while homeland security knocks on our doors and says "you sure are buying a lot of chemicals, sir, care to step in the van?"

In light of the last few years, a roll of 120 or 35 that costs less than fifty bucks and is fresh... it still seems miraculous to me, and feels like borrowed time.

Off the soapbox, but man... I have 2 rolls of 320t in the freezer. I'll shoot them someday.

320T, 3 stop push, probably shot with a Nikon N90s:

JW PHOTO · Oct 23, 2014

M Carter said:
A buck and a half just doesn't mean much to me when I look at the films I loved... LOVED... that are no more. EPP, 320t, the f*cking (excuse my french but this is an emotional subject) MIGHTY Polagraph 35 with the hand-crank processor and instant goodness - that film was simply EPIC stuff, gone forever. (I can't say enough about Polagraph. Bromoil, Lith, sure, awesome, but just pulling the Polagraph from the processor and seeing that delicate metallic emulsion and the total magic that film could do? And it's gone. Forever.) The wealth of pro polaroid we had back in the day. Type 55 negs. Jesus.

When I look at available films, I feel like some kind of war survivor. I'm shocked there are this many choices left. Could you imagine a world without paper and developer and fix? It seems like we came to the brink of that. I'm frankly amazed we still have the choices we do, without having to brew up liquid emulsions and smear 'em on surfaces while homeland security knocks on our doors and says "you sure are buying a lot of chemicals, sir, care to step in the van?"

In light of the last few years, a roll of 120 or 35 that costs less than fifty bucks and is fresh... it still seems miraculous to me, and feels like borrowed time.

Off the soapbox, but man... I have 2 rolls of 320t in the freezer. I'll shoot them someday.

320T, 3 stop push, probably shot with a Nikon N90s:

Very nice shot!! There are some things I miss too. Plus, there are many things I never tried and now hear about. If I couldn't buy film or paper I'd be doing glass plates and coating paper that's for sure. I don't want to go that far, but would if I had no choice. John W

Simon R Galley · Oct 23, 2014

We have had no film price increase in the USA since February 2013 and no paper increase since February 2012 and when we introduced the new CLASSIC FB products they were introduced and sold at the same price as the MULTIGRADE IV FB they replaced.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

JW PHOTO · Oct 23, 2014

Simon R Galley said:
We have had no film price increase in the USA since February 2013 and no paper increase since February 2012 and when we introduced the new CLASSIC FB products they were introduced and sold at the same price as the MULTIGRADE IV FB they replaced.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Thanks Simon and I guess that wipes out the price increase to them theory. I guess I'll just have to ask them and hope they don't raise the price of HP5+. Might end up being the old "Curiosity killed the cat" thing and I'll screw myself again. I also want to say, like most folks here, that I really appreciate you and Ilford/Harman's dedication to our dying, but not dead, passion. I find my inner piece when I close the door to my darkroom. John W

Surprise at the local camera shop yesterday.............

JW PHOTO

frank

mgb74

frank

Simon R Galley

BrianShaw

pdeeh

pbromaghin

JW PHOTO

Xmas

Terry Breedlove

JW PHOTO

JW PHOTO

MattKing

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pbromaghin

BrianShaw

JW PHOTO

M Carter

pbromaghin

RalphLambrecht

JW PHOTO

M Carter

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Surprise at the local camera shop yesterday.............

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