Ascorbate has a reduction potential below many developing agents if you check out their Poubaix diagrams.
Amidol is not known in this context.
Le Clerc "Photography Theory and Practice" vol 4 $581 says it has been suggested that amidol developers can be stabilized by the addition of 1-2 g/L metol.
This seems to imply that metol may regenerate amidol rather than the reverse case which is normal for superadditivity.
That may also be the case. I've seen a reference that the oxidation products of amidol is a very powerful retainer. I've tried adding phenidone to a similar formulation and had no change in activity, whereas phenidone would normally increase activity at this phI would guess that Amidol [2,4 diaminophenol] would be more like p-phenylenediamine and would be adsorbed on the silver bromide grains. It might give an oxidation product that partially blocks the surface but can be regenerated with a secondary reducing agent. This may occur also with Halcyon ppd-ascorbate developer.
Amidol might be superadditive with metol or catechol which are used in some formulas to preserve it.
Also ,of course the ascorbate may be superadditive.
I find Amidol without ascorbic acid is excessively messy and unpredictable, but the formula above is surprisingly consistent even if far from perfect still. It also is not messy unless you leave a solution out and allow droplets to dry or oxidize, which will turn a deep purple and does stain. The solution as is though does not stain trays etc. I've tried a few other amidol developers and all stain trays even when being diligent about cleaning upThere are formulas for first developers in reversal processes that use amidol alone.
Amidol is messy to use...
If this case the AA may act more as oxidized developer scavenger than as secondary developer.
If Amidol and AA were truly superadditive, then with 25g of AA in the mix there should be no trace of "compensating" in the results section. Any developer sufficiently powerful and concentrated should reproduce the paper's characteristic curve, period. You state, that staining is strongly reduced and that the developer is usable for six whole hours, so the AA most definitely does something useful here, but the development work may still be mostly done by the Amidol. If your observations about "compensating" and "low contrast in the mid tones" prove correct, then the AA may be able to reduce higher oxidized products of Amidol, but not single oxidized Amidol. If this case the AA may act more as oxidized developer scavenger than as secondary developer.
Either way, very interesting experiments! I have been looking for a near neutral developer for a while, since self coated emulsions are extremely weak and high pH will likely further weaken it. I have already thought about Amidol developers, but with the AA the concept may work even better.
Sodium carbonate definitely accelerates amidol; but if any acidic ingredient is present, they just cancel each other out to a proportionate degree. For example, because the tray life of amidol with added sodium carbonate is short, people would add citric acid to improve the tray life, but that just offset the utility of adding sodium carbonate in the first place. My own amidol paper formula uses only amidol, sodium sulfite, a pinch of benzotriazole, and a little citric acid as the antioxidant.
But I don't understand why you even want to take amidol down this path. It frankly doesn't work well in combination with most other developing agents. And if you want a split of deep blue black tones in shadows and warm upper tones in a warmtone paper like MGWT, there are far more reliable ways to do that.
As far as that unrelated film developer tweak Loose Gravel just mentioned, putting amidol into pyro sometimes works, but can potentially become a negative-ruining crap shoot, difficult to predict. Bt what exactly did you mean by, Build low end contrast? - more density at the bottom, and hence more of a toe, or a steeper toe with better shadow gradation instead? I'd like to see a comparison densitometer plot.
One issue with amidol is that it can be difficult to acquire consistent quality powder. In the past decade or so a large amount of poor quality Chinese amidol has flooded the market, which leaves an orange stain hard to wash out, a problem allegedly due to nickel vat contamination, but hard to say the exact reason. When there was once an excellent lab supplier locally, who mainly dealt with pharmaceutical and biotech labs, but also sold darkroom chemicals, he told me that photographic amidol was actually of a higher grade than medical amidol; and he was a phD. So too were his counter staff. They really knew their stuff. In the past few years, I've gotten high quality Euro amidol from Artcraft in NYC.
But given this fact, it's not hard to understand why people tended to view odd mixtures of amidol almost like voodoo; because it was hard to predict the outcome. Used more simply in paper developer formulas, if the quality of the amidol is good, it is easy to tame. Bromide papers in particular responded wonderfully to it if you were seeking a cold tone, but so could chloride contact printing papers like Azo. But the nature of this particular thread is to stretch those relatively predictable characteristics to the snapping point by introduced other variables. Have at it ! - I'll stick to what I know works instead.
An approach (1963) by Polaroid researchers is disclosed in U.S. 3,091,530 wherein they propose substituted amidol derivatives retaining its desirable properties but with greater stability and that do not stain (which is critical in the proposed application). Unfortunately there do not appear to be other ways around its staining propensity. There are some older reported ways of increasing solution life, but this does not directly address staining, and this is all based on relatively ancient research.
Ascorbic Acid does not produce desensitizing oxidation products, but it does decrease in pH as it gets oxidized. Is there a chance you can measure pH before and after a dev run? Judging from the chemical structure there is only one possible explanation for oxidized Amidol to cause a restraining effect: if it keeps sticking to silver just like PPD does. However, if Amidol would do this, then Ascorbic Acid would inhibit just this effect, that's how all these MQ/PQ/PQ/... developers build up contrast, and that effect is even more visible with all these PPD+secondary dev type formulas.I believe the compensating action may be due to the oxidation product of both ascorbic acid and amidol both being very powerful restrainers. Even superadditive pairs can easily produce compensating action when the effect is relatively mild, as can be seen by my recent formulation with glycin and phenidone.
In terms of cost or ease of use it will hardly beat PQ developers. Yes, P + HQMS are great for film, but this combo is hardly cost effective for printing. I guess the hope was to preserve some of the attractive properties of Amidol (image tone, low pH), while avoiding its annoying properties (staining, short shelf life). Yes, DTPA or ATMP would be great addition.This seems a much more realistic scenario to me, especially as the Amidol 'stain' seems likely to be a dye coupler (or similar) formed via oxidation. DTPA to eliminate Fenton, AA, and Amidol might be the best combination, but whether it really has genuine benefits over a carefully balanced PQ/ PA developer is an open question. It is striking to me that at around the point that the properties of HQMS salts start to get properly understood, Glycin, Amidol & several of the other more unusual developing agents quietly & quickly fall by the wayside - though obviously, correlation ≠ causation.
Ascorbic Acid does not produce desensitizing oxidation products, but it does decrease in pH as it gets oxidized. Is there a chance you can measure pH before and after a dev run? Judging from the chemical structure there is only one possible explanation for oxidized Amidol to cause a restraining effect: if it keeps sticking to silver just like PPD does. However, if Amidol would do this, then Ascorbic Acid would inhibit just this effect, that's how all these MQ/PQ/PQ/... developers build up contrast, and that effect is even more visible with all these PPD+secondary dev type formulas.
I could think of two different effects/experiments:
BTW the two buffers I suggested are beneficial for yet another reason: if mixing the developer causes "great amount of bubbling", then this is most likely Carbon Dioxide lost in the mixing process. Depending on temperature and mixing procedure different amounts of Carbon Dioxide will escape, which means: you don't get a predictable composition. Using Borax/Boric Acid or Hydrogenphosphate/Dihydrogenphosphate buffers could completely avoid this issue.
- pH drop during development. This could be easily avoided by switching buffers from carbonate/bicarbonate to Borax/Boric Acid or Hydrogenphosphate/Dihydrogenphosphate, both of which do quite well at pH 6-7.
- Silver developing capacity of developer in terms of "moles of silver developed per mol of Amidol". If that number is greatly increased by the addition of 20 g/l Ascorbate, then superadditivity is likely a factor in this boost. If capacity stays more or less the same as without ascorbate, then the ascorbate does good things but isn't superadditive.
The carbonate/bicarbonate/Carbon Dioxide system would buffer quite well at pH around 6 or 7, so you may have more buffering than you intended. Some buffering is even quite useful, because you do want to set a well defined pH in your developer to obtain consistent results. This is particularly important for a developer, which does more than just "develop everything which looks developable".There is no measurable pH drop before and after development. In fact, I suspect the pH may somehow increase very slightly. I'm using pH test strips though so it's within measurement of error. This may be due to buffers or some such in photographic papers rather than any development effect.
Bicarbonate does more than just "neutralize the acid", it does form a carbonate/bicarbonate/Carbon Dioxide buffer system, the Carbon Dioxide part of which you already observed. Citric Acid and Sodium Citrate also form a buffer, but one most effective in the pH range between 3.0 and 6.2. Look at Sigma's Buffer Resource Page for more useful buffers. Monobasic and Dibasic Phosphates give you pH range from 5.7 all the way up to 8.0, which covers the whole range you wanted to look at.The bicarbonate is used to neutralize the ascorbic acid and amidol rather than strictly to build a buffer. Hydroxide would be better for this, I just didn't want to bother with the amount of tedium and precision needed for that. I could potentially even use citric acid/citrate, since I believe at pH 6 this developer would still work well.
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