Super Fix VIII?

seezee

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I've read the intriguing mentions of this mythical beast from Rowland (Ron) Mowrey, a.k.a. Photo Engineer, & was wondering if this is available commercially yet? Or if there are any plans to publish the formula? I've only found the (there was a url link here which no longer exists), but none of the later iterations.
 
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seezee

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Michael R 1974 said:
Although not the superfix formula, the state-of-the-art (worked on by Ron) is TF-5 sold through Formulary.
Click to expand...
I'm using TF-4 currently, with pyro-negatives. Would you recommend TF-5 over it?
 
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seezee

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I suppose I'll switch to TF-5 after I use up the TF-4. Could be a while, since I've only been using it for about a month.
 

Photo Engineer

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Super Fix VII and VIII do indeed exist. I have mentioned them here on and off. The goal is to reduce fix times as much as possible and reduce wash times as well. The current problems are that films not made by Kodak, Ilford and Fuji are not hard enough to withstand the chemistry involved, the components are expensive, and some of the chemicals are considered harmful. This latter amuses me, in that one ingredient is used in some tooth pastes but is banned in photographic chemistry!

The wash time with VIII is around 15" (yes seconds) for RC paper and I have more than 5 years keeping on it to prove it.

PE
 

Slixtiesix

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I am truly impressed with this. The evolution of photo chemistry is the best proof that film is still alive. It has become so much easier and faster to produce decent black and white images since I first started with film, I´m amazed what the future might bring...
 
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seezee

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So to my original question: how does one get one's hands on the stuff? Published formulae? Commercial offering? Secret handshake?
 
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seezee

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And would you consider the Carestream (by Kodak) films capable of withstanding the chemistry?
 

Photo Engineer

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The formula is not available at this time by any manufacturer. I am not ready to disclose it due to a number of considerations. I have never tested any Carestream films, but if you are using them for personal (non-medical) use, I suggest that you change films!

I don't recommend using X-Ray films in a camera for example.

PE
 
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seezee

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Fair enough. And yes, I am using x-ray film, "due to a number of considerations."
 

Photo Engineer

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And only by purchasing "real film" will Kodak, Ilford and Fuji survive!

So, we all have a number of considerations!

PE
 

Rudeofus

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koraks said:
Thanks! I totally forgot about that one.
I note that the formula linked to contains thiourea as well as thiocyanate.
Click to expand...

In the original thread on photo.net Ron stated, that fixing agents act in a superadditive fashion. This means: you start with one fixing agent (e.g. Ammonium Thiosulfate), find its optimal concentration and have some fixer speed. You try the same thing with another (e.g. Ammonium Thiocyanate), and get some other fixing speed. By combining two or more fixing agents you get better fixing speed than with each individual one.

In Superfix I there are three active fixers: Ammonium Thiosulfate, Ammonium Thiocyanate and Thiourea. This fixer would be vastly faster with e.g. 50 g/l Ammonium Thiocyanate, but there are weakly hardened films, which will lose their emulsion in such a fixer. Thiourea introduces other issues. It's a mighty fogging agent, and one major spill in your dark room may cause lots of problems with development of film or prints. That's why Ron kept both Ammonium Thiocyanate and Thiourea at just 10 g/l.

AFAIK Ron got rid of Thiourea in his later iterations of Superfix, but nobody seems to know (or talks publicly), what Ron used instead. In all likelihood he took this secret to his grave.

BTW fixer clearing times are not very repeatable across films, e.g. Fuji Neopan Acros clears much much faster than e.g. Kodak Tri-X. There's also different clearing time, whether you start with wet or dry film. Superfix is not the fastest fixer I've ever tried, but it is damn fast, and with some emulsions its action would certainly appear "near instant".
 

halfaman

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I find C41RA fixer to be also a super fast one for BW film and quite cheap. I think it is a thiosulfate-thiocyanate formula. The working solution at room temperature clears a film tail in just a couple of seconds, I use it for 75-90 seconds to be on the safe side.
 

koraks

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halfaman said:
I think it is a thiosulfate-thiocyanate formula.
Click to expand...

Maybe; it's one thing I'd like to figure out for the FUJIFILM CN16 fixer I generally use. But try to find an MSDS for that one....it's one 'request' I have filed with Fuji so that at least we have some way of figuring out what the heck we're working with.
 

pentaxuser

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So I opened the bottle of Girardelli.
I was suprised at the extremely fast clearing time. Almost instant. I still fixed for longer as necessary, but wanted to know what it contains. Found an MSDS and it mentions Thioureea. (Besides Natriumsulfit, Acetic acid and Ammoniumthiosulfat.) So this fixer recipy seems to reached commercial circulation. Now I doubt Ritterconcept produces it, seems a reseller of medical equipment. Rumors have it, the producer could be Calbe.

As for films not resisting Thioureea, I fixed FP4+, Fomapan 100 and Polypan-F with it. If Polypan could bear it, any film should.

Doesn't the above quote from Eugene Mezei suggest that Kodak could have produced Superfixer VIII or a version of it that made it instant without harming the emulsions of any film that wasn't from the "big three" of Kodak, Ilford and Fuji? It would seem to.

However the answer may have been that given the possibility, however remote, of harming some emulsions and the cost of making another fixer versus what Kodak may have perceived to be the marginal benefits, a corporate decision was reached that instant fixer was not worthwhile. It may be as simple as that

In at least one video by John Finch he says that after fixing in, for example Ilford Rapid Fixer, for as little as 15 secs you can afford to examine the film and that fixing is complete in as little as one minute Would it really be an advantage to save about a minute in time? You would still have to pour in the instant fixer, presumable swish it around for say 10 secs and then pour it out

By itself this kind of a saving in time would not be attractive to me and if the price of the instant fixer was even greater than current fixers, well you can count me out

pentaxuser
 

koraks

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@pentaxuser, keep in mind the drawbacks of thiourea already mentioned (i.e. it's a powerful fogging agent as well), plus the ones not yet touched upon, in particular its somewhat suspect safety record. Compared to what you'd otherwise find in a typical rapid fixer (i.e. amm. thiosulfate and sulfite), it's not particularly benign (although it's not exactly a horror compound, either). I can imagine this, in combination with the by all means adequate effectiveness and speed of regular rapid fixers, precluded a widespread adoption of a 'better' alternative.

Indeed, my own interest in such a 'superfix' is more academic than practical; I don't really see how scraping a bit off the few minutes I usually spend fixing film will make my life all that much easier.
 

Anon Ymous

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Rudeofus

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koraks said:
Ah, thanks!
Not thiourea. I do see there's imidazole in there, and I wonder if it may be used for a similar purpose.
Click to expand...

Imidazole is a weak silver solvent, so it may help fixation. It is also a very good buffer in the relevant pH range, which makes its use in a fixer for color products quite attractive.
 
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