Super concentrated ID11

chorleyjeff · Jul 8, 2006

Have bought a pack to make 5 litres of ID11 but now realise I don't have a 5 litre container. Would it be OK to make the 5 litre pack into 2.5 litres of concentrate then adjust dilution to get to my usual 1+1 ( or stock for Delta 3200)?
Thanks

Jeff

Donald Qualls · Jul 8, 2006

It won't hurt anything, as long as you remember the extra dilution, but you're likely to find it relatively difficult to get everything to fully dissolve (prolonged stirring in a hot water bath will eventually make it go, though). The issue is that, at double strength, ID-11 will be putting around 200 g/L of sulfite into the solution, which is pretty close to saturation -- I failed, a while back, to get 225 g/L of sulfite to dissolve with nothing else involved (making a stock solution of sulfite), and had to back off to 200 g/L, though the official saturation point is variously reported as up to 250+ g/L.

Worse, if the sulfite is that close to saturation, you might find the metol doesn't completely dissolve (it's notoriously hard to dissolve in strong sulfite solutions -- in mixing D-76 from raw chemicals, you'd normally add only a little of the sulfite, then the metol, then the rest of the sulfite to get around this), which could lead to a situation where the developer is weaker than it should be or changes strength as it stands (and the metol slowly dissolves with standing).

What I'd suggest is to go ahead and try it -- and if it doesn't fully dissolve, get a 5 liter container, pour your existing mixture into it, wash down the smaller container with some of the (warmed) water you'll be adding, and remix to the 5 liter volume. As long as you pick up all the solids when remixing and they finally do fully dissolve, no harm will be done.

gainer · Jul 8, 2006

chorleyjeff said:
Have bought a pack to make 5 litres of ID11 but now realise I don't have a 5 litre container. Would it be OK to make the 5 litre pack into 2.5 litres of concentrate then adjust dilution to get to my usual 1+1 ( or stock for Delta 3200)?
Thanks

Jeff

It would be better to use a 1 gallon jug. That would put the sulfite at about 130 g/l. A gallon is about 3.82 liters IIRC. Your dilution would be 1/5 gallon to make 1 liter of working solution. Is that not about one wine or whiskey bottle per liter?

gainer · Jul 8, 2006

OTH, the British gallon is not the same as the US gallon. You can figure it out, I'm sure.

Ian Grant · Jul 8, 2006

As Donald points out it may be difficult to dissolve.

However it's also likely that some of the chemicals will crystallise causing the remaining developer to be unbalanced. Why not mix it properly the split for storage. That way you have the adavantage that the 2nd unused bottle will last much longer anyway.

Ian

Bob F. · Jul 8, 2006

chorleyjeff said:
Have bought a pack to make 5 litres of ID11 but now realise I don't have a 5 litre container. Would it be OK to make the 5 litre pack into 2.5 litres of concentrate then adjust dilution to get to my usual 1+1 ( or stock for Delta 3200)?
Thanks

Jeff

I mix mine in a bucket I keep for that job only (99p from B&Q) and store the stock in fizzy pop bottles. Alternately, get a 5l bottle of deionized water from Halfords or similar and use that - water and container in one (of course you need less than 5l of water once the powders are added) ...

Have fun, Bob.

Warreneve · Jul 8, 2006

I am just getting to the end of a batch of ID11 which was mixed as 2.5 litres of concentrate such as you describe.
Each time before I use it I give the storage container a good agitation to get the contents evenly mixed which makes the liquid "milky" with lots of suspended matter. However, after I pour out the amount I require and add water to make a dilution of 1+1, the suspended matter dissolves and liquid becomes clear within a minute or so.
It has given me good results and I would do it again, although it is probably not ideal for the reasons listed above.

chorleyjeff · Jul 9, 2006

Thanks everyone.
Went for the bucket option and it seems to have worked.
Only problem is that Delta 3200 exposed at 1600 developed for 10 minutes at 20c seems underdeveloped or underexposed!

Jeff

david b · Jul 9, 2006

I also make mine in a bucket and then fill five 1 liter bottles. I find this much easier when developing film.

ricksplace · Jul 9, 2006

david b said:
I also make mine in a bucket and then fill five 1 liter bottles. I find this much easier when developing film.

I do this too. I'm pretty sure (I'm not at home right now to check) the mix I use is for one US gallon or 3.88 litres. I make it up in a glass US gallon jug, and decant to one litre bottles.

edit -whoops, sorry, I'm using d76!

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 9, 2006

I'm getting ready to mix a gallon of Kodak D-76. I will mix it in a bucket and decant it into 500ml amber glass Boston Rounds. From what I have read, it appears that the current versions (Factory Packaged) of Ilford ID-11 and Kodak D-76 are functionally equivalent developers.

I would still like to know if any of you have experience with either D-76 or ID-11 at dilutions greater than 1+3?

dancqu · Jul 9, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
I would still like to know if any of you have
experience with either D-76 or ID-11 at
dilutions greater than 1+3?

No experience BUT. With it's 2 grams of metol and
5 grams of hydroquinone I wouldn't be surprised if it
went 1:7. I'd use no less than 500ml of solution.
Sulfite in that volume equals 6.25 grams. Way
more than Beutler's or FX-1 or ?. Maybe
20 minutes with some agitation. Dan

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 9, 2006

Thanks Dan, I'll give it a try!

lowellh · Jul 10, 2006

Why don't you guys buy liquid concentrates and eliminate all these issues?

PhotoJim · Jul 10, 2006

Liquid concentrates are expensive (although convenient). I solve the problem by mixing my own D-76 up from scratch. I can make 1 litre, or 32.5, whatever I want.

lowellh · Jul 10, 2006

You can do the same with liquid concentrates by just adding water, one step measuring, not multiple measurements of small quantities. As for expensive, one quart of F76plus Developer costs $10.00 and makes ten quarts, $1.00/ qt, can you buy raw materials, measure them, inventory them and not to mention Q.C. issues as inexpensively?

chorleyjeff · Jul 10, 2006

lowellh said:
Why don't you guys buy liquid concentrates and eliminate all these issues?

Because Paterson stopped supplying Aculux and FX39 and I'm looking for a substitute. But you raised the point so what, easily obtained in UK, liquid developer do you recommend for Delta 100 and 400?

Jeff

lowellh · Jul 10, 2006

Our F 76 plus Developer, a gamma 1 developer, is great with most films, including the "designer grain" films. I am trying to get Paterson to be our distributor in G.B. Talk to Roger Parry if you have an interest or DIGITAL TRUTH, Jon Miden, will have the products sent to you. Any questions contact me.

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 10, 2006

lowellh said:
Our F 76 plus Developer, a gamma 1 developer, is great with most films, including the "designer grain" films. I am trying to get Paterson to be our distributor in G.B. Talk to Roger Parry if you have an interest or DIGITAL TRUTH, Jon Miden, will have the products sent to you. Any questions contact me.

Thanks for your suggestions, Lowell.

I am preparing to do some comparative film/developer testing. I have decided to use Kodak D-76 (from Kodak's packaged dry mix ) as the baseline developer.

srs5694 · Jul 10, 2006

lowellh said:
You can do the same with liquid concentrates by just adding water, one step measuring, not multiple measurements of small quantities. As for expensive, one quart of F76plus Developer costs $10.00 and makes ten quarts, $1.00/ qt, can you buy raw materials, measure them, inventory them and not to mention Q.C. issues as inexpensively?

I've never used this product, but checking the Web, it seems to use 1+9 dilution. At that dilution, and adding a guesstimated $2.00 to ship the concentrate, enough developer to develop a single roll of 35mm film (250ml in a SS tank) costs $0.32. For comparison, home-made D-76 costs $0.12/roll, Rodinal-type developers cost $0.07-$0.10/roll (depending on the formula), PC-TEA costs $0.08/roll, and DS-12 costs $0.04/roll, just to name a few. These costs all include shipping for raw chemicals from various suppliers. On a cost basis, few commercial developers can compete with home-made chemistry.

That said, the price difference is pretty minor compared to the cost of the film itself, not to mention paper on which to make prints. IMHO, cost isn't a major reason to mix your own developer, unless maybe you're on a very tight budget. Better reasons for mixing your own developers are flexibility, the ability to experiment, less chance of chemistry going bad from being stored a long time (if you mix it in small quantities), and simply enjoying doing it (if you do, of course).

Marco Gilardetti · Jul 11, 2006

lowellh said:
Why don't you guys buy liquid concentrates and eliminate all these issues?

Because liquids, expecially when opened, has no way a shelf life as long as powders, which keeps almost forever.

An idea for your next batch: fraction the powders. You don't even need a balance: you can use a graded cylinder. Evaluate how much powder each of the two bags contain, and then use 1/5 (or 1/10: I usually prepare half litre, which is enough to fill the tank) of it each time.

chorleyjeff · Jul 11, 2006

Marco Gilardetti said:
Because liquids, expecially when opened, has no way a shelf life as long as powders, which keeps almost forever.

An idea for your next batch: fraction the powders. You don't even need a balance: you can use a graded cylinder. Evaluate how much powder each of the two bags contain, and then use 1/5 (or 1/10: I usually prepare half litre, which is enough to fill the tank) of it each time.

How do you know the various chemicals are spread evenly through the powder? Should think that different size of grains and different densities will cause uneven distribution within the powder.

chorleyjeff · Jul 11, 2006

lowellh said:
Our F 76 plus Developer, a gamma 1 developer, is great with most films, including the "designer grain" films. I am trying to get Paterson to be our distributor in G.B. Talk to Roger Parry if you have an interest or DIGITAL TRUTH, Jon Miden, will have the products sent to you. Any questions contact me.

Where is F76 sold in Uk please?

Marco Gilardetti · Jul 11, 2006

chorleyjeff said:
How do you know the various chemicals are spread evenly through the powder? Should think that different size of grains and different densities will cause uneven distribution within the powder.

Locally, not in mean. However, if you think so, give it a stir and a shake before measuring. Well, in few words: it WORKS, and it works very well!

lowellh · Jul 11, 2006

digitaltruth.com is the Clayton dealer in G.B. I have tried to involve Paterson but no success yet.

Super concentrated ID11

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