Sunshine

awty · Jun 2, 2018

Any tips on creating sunshine or lighting?
I have been experimenting, not sure if Im going about it the right way.
The first is early morning sun burst, its really messy with the dodges, I didnt feather very well, didnt spend much time, does it work?
Second was a window, I cropped out the window to make it easier, still struggling with feathering (stopped down 1 to give me more time. Burnt in the center frame. Again, does it work? Not after perfection, just to give an illusion, these are for practicing.
Thanks

mamiya rz67 across 100 film

a low resolution holga (plastic camera) shot on hp5 6 x 4.5

jvo · Jun 2, 2018

they each have potential but need a lot of work. what do you see?

Ozxplorer · Jun 2, 2018

Paul... the first gives the impression of multi-directional light sources and is, in my opinion, not believable. The second... looks more credible... again the but, with the strongly lit window outline on the floor I would expect to see more gradations of tone adjacent to the bright outline as the light falls off across the floor. Well done for taking the challenge to expand your visualisation of the photographed scene!

awty · Jun 3, 2018

jvo said:
they each have potential but need a lot of work. what do you see?

Thanks James
First to emphasize the sun raise on the grass, maybe it needs a brighter sun and more rays, definitely needs more feathering of the dodges. Open to suggestions, remembering its only an exercise for me to do a better picture and know how to make it work in the darkroom.

The second is a poor attempt at something similar to the grand central rail station type pictures, was trying to keep it simple, still doesn't work. The burnt in cross pane in the sun rays was a mask with a 1 sec burn @ f16, f22 wasnt enough. The main sun rays dodge was 8secs @ f16, I used 16 secs @ f22, still didnt feather well, maybe an nd filter will give me more time. Also have a problem of not dodging the window reflection on the floor while raising the dodging wand. Maybe I need to reposition the negative so the window reflection on the floor is centered so not to shadow the window reflection and to get even feathering of the rays.....if you know what I mean.
Also the window reflection on the floor could do with a slight burn. Burnt the corners gradually 1 stop. Again just practicing, open to suggestions.

awty · Jun 3, 2018

Ozxplorer said:
Paul... the first gives the impression of multi-directional light sources and is, in my opinion, not believable. The second... looks more credible... again the but, with the strongly lit window outline on the floor I would expect to see more gradations of tone adjacent to the bright outline as the light falls off across the floor. Well done for taking the challenge to expand your visualisation of the photographed scene!

Thanks Fred
I agree the first doesn't work, open to suggestions to make it work. Some say you cant make a silk purse from a sows ear, I say you dont know till you try.

grahamp · Jun 3, 2018

What does not work with the window projection, is the shadow of the sash in the middle of the window. It looks like it projects onto the wall for one thing, and unless there is a lot of dust or smoke in the air, the shadow will not appear in mid-air, only where the light hits something. Without that impossible diagonal shadow, it works well.

The other issue is what is revealing the light path, and how much scattering can occur against the far wall. Without dust to reveal the light path, you would get a bright area on the floor, and some general illumination on the walls. probably darker close to the window wall, brighter up to the end of the lit floor, then darkening deeper into the room. Dust scattering will lighten the light path, but not the background significantly. So the background remains stable and the light path has to be lightened - but you can't see though it very well. So the background is lost behind the bright scatter.

It is very hard to work out what is going on in a situation like this - the eye is fooled. Finding a real example, sketching it, then putting in light levels with a spot meter would tell you a lot. Or just judge the light levels looking through a hole in a piece of card. The card gives the eye a base reference, and the aperture reveals the actual light level.

I think you have picked a complex thing to try and emulate, but you are a lot closer than I would get!

eddie · Jun 3, 2018

Another way to add fake sunshine is with bleach. I used bleach to create the second one:

awty · Jun 4, 2018

grahamp said:
What does not work with the window projection, is the shadow of the sash in the middle of the window. It looks like it projects onto the wall for one thing, and unless there is a lot of dust or smoke in the air, the shadow will not appear in mid-air, only where the light hits something. Without that impossible diagonal shadow, it works well.

The other issue is what is revealing the light path, and how much scattering can occur against the far wall. Without dust to reveal the light path, you would get a bright area on the floor, and some general illumination on the walls. probably darker close to the window wall, brighter up to the end of the lit floor, then darkening deeper into the room. Dust scattering will lighten the light path, but not the background significantly. So the background remains stable and the light path has to be lightened - but you can't see though it very well. So the background is lost behind the bright scatter.

It is very hard to work out what is going on in a situation like this - the eye is fooled. Finding a real example, sketching it, then putting in light levels with a spot meter would tell you a lot. Or just judge the light levels looking through a hole in a piece of card. The card gives the eye a base reference, and the aperture reveals the actual light level.

I think you have picked a complex thing to try and emulate, but you are a lot closer than I would get!

Thank you very much Graham, you have given me plenty to think about, its always good to get others perspective. I like a challenge and will keep working at similar scenes till I can get it right......or a least get close.

awty · Jun 4, 2018

eddie said:
Another way to add fake sunshine is with bleach. I used bleach to create the second one:

View attachment 201811 View attachment 201812

Thats excellent Eddie. I generally have trouble containing bleach, forever going over the edges and it tends to pond, hard to get uniform streaks. Whats your process to achieve this effect? I switched from ferri and water to iodine, thio and metho seems to give me a little more control.
Think I need to reread Tim Rudmans printing book.

Ozxplorer · Jun 4, 2018

awty said:
I generally have trouble containing bleach, forever going over the edges and it tends to pond, hard to get uniform streaks

Paul, you may find this video link of assistance that is, if you have not watched it before... it is French but one can follow the story quite easily! Visit - you’ll see how this printer controls the bleaching process.

AgX · Jun 4, 2018

grahamp said:
What does not work with the window projection, is the shadow of the sash in the middle of the window. It looks like it projects onto the wall for one thing, and unless there is a lot of dust or smoke in the air, the shadow will not appear in mid-air, only where the light hits something. Without that impossible diagonal shadow, it works well.

The more dust there will be, the less the shadow will show, if it would show at all, as it would be overcasted by stray light behind and in front of it.

But I must say I never faked such so far, and I even did not not realize that shadow in the air until you hinted at it.

removed account4 · Jun 4, 2018

hi paul

you could also use a hard filter for the light
and a softer filter for the rest of the print.
that doesn't necessarily mean a 5+ or 5 but could
be something like a 4 or 4.5 and a 2 for the other exposure..
you can also use your filters as light you burn things in with instead
of the initial exposures. sometimes it is easier to expose your paper
for the stuff you want the "other" tones and then stick a contrast filter
in and stop your lens down a little and burn the print in that way...

not sure how you dodge and burn .. but i found it to be easier to use hands
instead of paper or cardboard cut outs or lollipops .. takes practice though.

good luck !

tedr1 · Jun 4, 2018

I like these. They show strong creativity at work to emphasize and manipulate dramatic lighting.
Dodging and burning gets easier with practice. If you don't already do so I recommend making careful notes about where dodging and burning were applied and in what amounts and include this for every print made, even tryouts. I write in 6B pencil on the back.

awty · Jun 4, 2018

Ozxplorer said:
Paul, you may find this video link of assistance that is, if you have not watched it before... it is French but one can follow the story quite easily! Visit - you’ll see how this printer controls the bleaching process.

Great to watch, she if very good and makes it look easy, but its the detail I need. Bleaching highlights is not too hard as long as you dont go too far, bleaching mids and shadows is a little more difficult.

awty · Jun 4, 2018

jnanian said:
hi paul

you could also use a hard filter for the light
and a softer filter for the rest of the print.
that doesn't necessarily mean a 5+ or 5 but could
be something like a 4 or 4.5 and a 2 for the other exposure..
you can also use your filters as light you burn things in with instead
of the initial exposures. sometimes it is easier to expose your paper
for the stuff you want the "other" tones and then stick a contrast filter
in and stop your lens down a little and burn the print in that way...

not sure how you dodge and burn .. but i found it to be easier to use hands
instead of paper or cardboard cut outs or lollipops .. takes practice though.

good luck !

Thanks jnanian. I use hands a bit on larger prints, but they are too fat and clumsy for 8x10's. Great tip on using the contrast filters, I do do that sometimes, need to chose the right one else you get low contrast burns and high contrast dodges, then you still need to keep the rest of the picture at the right contrast.....its tricky.
Also could do better with a good slow exposure to begin with, a lot to ponder.

awty · Jun 4, 2018

tedr1 said:
I like these. They show strong creativity at work to emphasize and manipulate dramatic lighting.
Dodging and burning gets easier with practice. If you don't already do so I recommend making careful notes about where dodging and burning were applied and in what amounts and include this for every print made, even tryouts. I write in 6B pencil on the back.

Thanks Ted. I do draw all over my test print my dodges, burns, base time, f stop, lens size etc also taught myself to fstop print, just need more practice.

awty · Jun 4, 2018

AgX said:
The more dust there will be, the less the shadow will show, if it would show at all, as it would be overcasted by stray light behind and in front of it.

But I must say I never faked such so far, and I even did not not realize that shadow in the air until you hinted at it.

Think I need to observe more pictures, shadows do get caught in the dust, trying to look natural is hard.

Sunshine

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency