Sunpak 522 and RB67

coops · Aug 9, 2011

I just got this flash for my RB, and have never used flash before. It is essentially for a little fill flash for outdoor photography. I will be using a Portra 400. I do have a Sekonic L-508 and will be using my 180mm lens. My understanding is that the RB will fire the flash at all shutter speeds, so do I select an appropriate aperture and shutter speed on the camera and dial that aperture into the flash and shoot? Should I use the flash, dial in a shtter speed of 100, fire the flash and use the aperture the light meter gives me?
Also, once I have determined the above, do you usually dial back the flash a little to be on the safe side? I am just trying not to waste too much film figuring this out for myself.
I just noticed that I cannot mount the RB to my tripod with the flash and flash holder attatched. I may need to put the flash on its own tripod and use the remote sensor to fire it, as I am not sure I want to hand hold the camera and flash.
Any help appreciated. Cheers

Chan Tran · Aug 9, 2011

If I have to shoot quickly I would select 1 of its 4 automatic range, set the aperture on the camera lens to match and shoot away. If I have time, I would put the flash on manual, measure the flash with the flash meter and set the aperture accordingly. Adjust the power ratio to get to the aperture you like.

coops · Aug 9, 2011

Thanks for the response, but what about shutter speed? Do you use just one shutter speed, like 100, or do you use the shutter/aperture suggested by the camera meter?

hpulley · Aug 9, 2011

With the RB67's leaf shutter lenses you can use any shutter speed you want as all are synchronized for flash exposures. Obviously a longer shutter speed will give you more ambient light. The flash exposure is very short so set the aperture for the flash and film speed and you'll get the correct subject exposure and you can use the shutter speed to adjust the background exposure.

Fill flash is a bit different however. Generally fill is not using the full amount of flash needed as you have some ambient light as well. In this case you may want to use a smaller aperture than suggested or a lower flash power if you're using manual flash settings.

If you aren't sure how it will turn out, get a Polariod back and some Fuji FP-100C or 100B film and you get can instant feedback about your lighting. Then replace with the 120 back to take your final images.

olleorama · Aug 9, 2011

hpulley said:
With the RB67's leaf shutter lenses you can use any shutter speed you want as all are synchronized for flash exposures. Obviously a longer shutter speed will give you more ambient light. The flash exposure is very short so set the aperture for the flash and film speed and you'll get the correct subject exposure and you can use the shutter speed to adjust the background exposure.

Fill flash is a bit different however. Generally fill is not using the full amount of flash needed as you have some ambient light as well. In this case you may want to use a smaller aperture than suggested or a lower flash power if you're using manual flash settings.

If you aren't sure how it will turn out, get a Polariod back and some Fuji FP-100C or 100B film and you get can instant feedback about your lighting. Then replace with the 120 back to take your final images.

Instant-schminstant. 1½-2 minutes plus time to change backs usually... Try and use that practically outside the studio if you like. Aint gonna happen with any real customers. Not IMHE at least.

Dante stella has a good article on fill flash.

hpulley · Aug 9, 2011

FP-100B takes 30s to develop, not 1-2 minutes (FP-100C is longer, true). Switching backs takes 10s or less, especially when on a tripod. I use it outdoors, no problem. Indoors FP-3000B is even faster, 15-20s or so (I use it to proof Delta 3200 120 at times).

CGW · Aug 9, 2011

Got a friend with a DSLR?

hpulley · Aug 9, 2011

CGW said:
Got a friend with a DSLR?

That's cheating on APUG as is a digital back for the RB67 And besides, I find metering with DSLRs is not quite the same as with film and the coverage of medium format for flash is different generally anyways so you'd need to do some calibration tests before it was reliable. Fuji Instant film really shows you what the image will look like on film using the same lens and camera.

CGW · Aug 9, 2011

hpulley said:
That's cheating on APUG as is a digital back for the RB67 And besides, I find metering with DSLRs is not quite the same as with film and the coverage of medium format for flash is different generally anyways so you'd need to do some calibration tests before it was reliable. Fuji Instant film really shows you what the image will look like on film using the same lens and camera.

Except that Fuji instant isn't exactly giveaway priced, Harry. However heretical it may be, the DSLR route works. Just don't tell anyone.

hpulley · Aug 9, 2011

At $7/pack for 10 shots you can still buy a lot of instant film for the cost of a DSLR and you get a real print, not just an LCD but do what works for you.

To the OP, sorry we're more than a little off topic now... I will go now...

coops · Aug 9, 2011

ce. Thanks for the reponse, gives me a good starting point. I dont want you guys to start fighting but do have a question. Whats better, film or digital?

Kidding

SafetyBob · Aug 10, 2011

To give you an idea with I use with my Nikon FA and FE and my Mamiya 645 Pro is older Canon potato masher flashes (533G and 577G). I haven't really had any issues with going with the flash driven f-stop for auto. The only exception to this was some family pictures I did with Porta 160 about a year or so in full sun, I should have adjusted something as I believe my ambient was to bright, and actually the entire picture set was to bright. I should have got my meter out, but I didn't.......I do now. Lesson learned.

I think you have something to go on as far as technique, unfortunately you will have to try some experimenting before playing with actual customers. I would appreciate it once you have a technique down, come back and tell us......i would love to know exactly how you will be working with flash.

Bob E.

Athiril · Aug 10, 2011

hpulley said:
That's cheating on APUG as is a digital back for the RB67 And besides, I find metering with DSLRs is not quite the same as with film and the coverage of medium format for flash is different generally anyways so you'd need to do some calibration tests before it was reliable. Fuji Instant film really shows you what the image will look like on film using the same lens and camera.

How is the coverage different? The flash covers x degrees, the lens is y degrees. It is field of view dependant, not format size.

I find my 30D and Gossen Luna Pro agree on reflected just fine.

dSLR will show you what the image looks like just fine - where the light falls, the softness/hardness of the light, how the lighting contrast looks.

Flash meter is a great tool too.

I use a pair of YN-460 II'swith my RB67 and RF-600/602's.

hpulley said:
At $7/pack for 10 shots you can still buy a lot of instant film for the cost of a DSLR and you get a real print, not just an LCD but do what works for you.

To the OP, sorry we're more than a little off topic now... I will go now...

Assuming he doesn't have a dSLR already - or any small mirrorless camera with hot shoe or pc sync. There are a lot of cheap small p&s with hot shoe.

Great for preview when you're doing things on the cheap and not having modelling lamps on your flashes.

Even with a digital preview or polaroid back - neither is a substitute for an incident flash meter, that should be first priority.

olleorama · Aug 10, 2011

hpulley said:
FP-100B takes 30s to develop, not 1-2 minutes (FP-100C is longer, true). Switching backs takes 10s or less, especially when on a tripod. I use it outdoors, no problem. Indoors FP-3000B is even faster, 15-20s or so (I use it to proof Delta 3200 120 at times).

FP-100B is discontinued. Have you ever tried using fuji instant for proofing with real live models? I have, not a nice experience. I prefer dslr.

CGW · Aug 10, 2011

Athiril said:
How is the coverage different? The flash covers x degrees, the lens is y degrees. It is field of view dependant, not format size.

I find my 30D and Gossen Luna Pro agree on reflected just fine.

dSLR will show you what the image looks like just fine - where the light falls, the softness/hardness of the light, how the lighting contrast looks.

Flash meter is a great tool too.

I use a pair of YN-460 II'swith my RB67 and RF-600/602's.

Assuming he doesn't have a dSLR already - or any small mirrorless camera with hot shoe or pc sync. There are a lot of cheap small p&s with hot shoe.

Great for preview when you're doing things on the cheap and not having modelling lamps on your flashes.

Even with a digital preview or polaroid back - neither is a substitute for an incident flash meter, that should be first priority.

Agree. This absolute insistence on "analog only" is approaching "flat earth" looniness when it comes to issues like this. I haven't seen anyone use Polaroid proofing in a "film" studio session in years.

hpulley · Aug 10, 2011

olleorama said:
FP-100B is discontinued. Have you ever tried using fuji instant for proofing with real live models? I have, not a nice experience. I prefer dslr.

I said I was done with this thread and normally I'd stick to my word but since I was asked a question...

FP-100B has indeed been discontinued but since no one but me apparently uses the stuff, Fujifilm USA has written that they are worried that they won't be able to sell off the stock before it all expires at the end of the year. The stuff works fine past the overly conservative expiry date (I think analog manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot partly because of their expiry dates but that is for another rant than this one...).

I find real live people find instant pictures are fun for proofing but I have not shot real supermodels who might find waiting 30s annoying. Perhaps if I'm shooting a real pro model they would laugh me out of the studio for taking fuji instant proofs. I don't know.

hpulley · Aug 10, 2011

CGW said:
Agree. This absolute insistence on "analog only" is approaching "flat earth" looniness when it comes to issues like this. I haven't seen anyone use Polaroid proofing in a "film" studio session in years.

Your reply is approaching an insult but you should read what I wrote instead of seeing it as blind insistence. I believe I tried to write that I find an instant picture gives me a better idea of what a film print will look like than what a DSLR gives me. I don't use it to be blindly analog, I use it because it works better for me. I hope that is clear enough.

And... I am not a complete luddite. I have and use Canon pro digital equipment. When I want digital output I use digital rather than scanning film and since digital output is what all my clients want these days I don't shoot with both digital and film for jobs, it is just digital 100%. No one even want prints anymore and even if they do want prints and I try to tell them that analog prints better, they don't want it anyways. At this point the only film I shoot is for me alone.

OK, now I'm really done with this thread, I hope...

CGW · Aug 10, 2011

I find real live people find instant pictures are fun for proofing but I have not shot real supermodels who might find waiting 30s annoying. Perhaps if I'm shooting a real pro model they would laugh me out of the studio for taking fuji instant proofs. I don't know.[/QUOTE]

Amusement is one thing, business another. Instant film proofing just isn't part of professional workflow in the way it once was. The price and availability of the stuff are clues, right?

hpulley · Aug 10, 2011

CGW said:
I find real live people find instant pictures are fun for proofing but I have not shot real supermodels who might find waiting 30s annoying. Perhaps if I'm shooting a real pro model they would laugh me out of the studio for taking fuji instant proofs. I don't know.

Click to expand...

Amusement is one thing, business another. Instant film proofing just isn't part of professional workflow in the way it once was. The price and availability of the stuff are clues, right?

Yes, they're the reason why FP-100B is discontinued.

As I just wrote above, professionally film is totally dead as far as I'm concerned.

olleorama · Aug 10, 2011

hpulley said:
I said I was done with this thread and normally I'd stick to my word but since I was asked a question...

FP-100B has indeed been discontinued but since no one but me apparently uses the stuff, Fujifilm USA has written that they are worried that they won't be able to sell off the stock before it all expires at the end of the year. The stuff works fine past the overly conservative expiry date (I think analog manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot partly because of their expiry dates but that is for another rant than this one...).

I find real live people find instant pictures are fun for proofing but I have not shot real supermodels who might find waiting 30s annoying. Perhaps if I'm shooting a real pro model they would laugh me out of the studio for taking fuji instant proofs. I don't know.

People who get paid to model usually don't bother. More like brides and grooms, relatives, kids and what not. And if we're talking fp-100C which is the one available, as mentioned, it would be a lot more than 30s..

markbarendt · Aug 10, 2011

Hey Coops,

Welcome to APUG.

So here's a bit of a primer on flash.

The first thing to understand about flash is that it's range is limited, before everybody says well duh, that concept matters especially in fill flash.

I think of flash shots as two separate exposures; an ambient light exposure outside the range of the flash and then the main subject's exposure at a very specific range from the camera.

The ambient light exposure is controlled purely by the aperture, time, and film speed just like any normal shot. Just meter and set the camera normally to get your background where you want it.

The next thing to understand is that flash is really fast. A full power flash may last 1/2000th of a second, as power is reduced flash duration gets even shorter. Most modern flash guns control flash out put by controlling the duration of the flash. Since the flash duration is normally shorter than the shutter open duration, the shutter has no effect on the flash, only aperture and film speed do.

What that all means is simply that you set your flash gun to match the aperture and film speed being used in the camera.

With fill flash all we are trying to do is control contrast, a little pop to get the subject brightness more in balance with the background.

If the subject is covering a fair share of the frame, "auto" mode may work just fine. Dont know about your flash gun but my Nikon units will actually indicate the range of distances this method will work in once the aperture and ISO are set. If yours does the same, at this point you just go to shooting.

The manual mode takes a bit more work and practice and study. Essentially you dial in a power setting in the flash gun that will work at a certain range. If you move in closer you will need to reduce flash output, if you move away you need to increase output.

hpulley · Aug 10, 2011

olleorama said:
People who get paid to model usually don't bother. More like brides and grooms, relatives, kids and what not. And if we're talking fp-100C which is the one available, as mentioned, it would be a lot more than 30s..

Again, people find the instant pictures fun and the wait is not a problem. It is only an issue for the first one. Take one, take it out, take another, take it out... first one is ready so peel and show, then second is ready, peel and show... everyone can pass around the pictures at once and they can look at pictures you've already taken while you are taking more pictures which you can't do with a DSLR ;-)

A silly little installation I made this morning, a fuji instant picture taken with a Polaroid Automatic 100 camera (which has a light leak sadly), then 'scanned' with a Canon EOS 1D pro camera. Everything in this picture says PROFESSIONAL on it but only two things are used by pros these days IMO, the EOS 1D and the CPS card...

Professional by Harry Pulley, on Flickr

For a guy who said he was done with this thread I sure have written a lot, sorry again. Time for work, rant over...

olleorama · Aug 10, 2011

I use my rb proffesionally. Not with fujiroids though. I save them for myself.

coops · Aug 10, 2011

markbarendt said:
Hey Coops,

The next thing to understand is that flash is really fast. A full power flash may last 1/2000th of a second, as power is reduced flash duration gets even shorter. Most modern flash guns control flash out put by controlling the duration of the flash. Since the flash duration is normally shorter than the shutter open duration, the shutter has no effect on the flash, only aperture and film speed do.

What that all means is simply that you set your flash gun to match the aperture and film speed being used in the camera.

So with flash being so fast the shutter speed is less important? Do you use pretty much the same shutter speed and adjust the aperture on the camera to the flash gun? For example my meter requires I put in a shutter speed to give me a flash/ambient reading. Using a 400 speed film I entered 100th sec, fired the flash at the meter and and was given 5.6 at 100th of a second. I would set the camera and flash to 5.6, make sure the iso was correct and thats it?
Guiess I could reduce the flash (using manual) by fractions and see what effect that has.
Thanks

markbarendt · Aug 10, 2011

coops said:
So with flash being so fast the shutter speed is less important? Do you use pretty much the same shutter speed and adjust the aperture on the camera to the flash gun? For example my meter requires I put in a shutter speed to give me a flash/ambient reading. Using a 400 speed film I entered 100th sec, fired the flash at the meter and and was given 5.6 at 100th of a second. I would set the camera and flash to 5.6, make sure the iso was correct and thats it?
Guiess I could reduce the flash (using manual) by fractions and see what effect that has.
Thanks

Shutter speed does not affect what the flash adds to the exposure

Shutter speed will change the affect of the ambient light.

For the subjects in range of the flash, flash + ambient = exposure.

Outside that range only ambient counts.

I'm not familiar with your meter so I don't know on that.

Sunpak 522 and RB67

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