Sunny 16 onwards

rhys · Apr 27, 2006

I'm looking for exposure data tables - things like the Sunny 16 rule but with more information.

Many years ago, exposure data table were constantly published in all the journals. Now all we get is the brief snippets that film manufacturers put with their rolls of film. Has anybody any ideas where I could find detailed tables of exposure data?

Donald Miller · Apr 27, 2006

Since most use light meters to determine exposure, it is probably not information that is published.

Fred Picker (founder of Zone VI) used a system called the Key Day system. A variation of the Sunny F 16 rule. His system went like this. If there were no clouds...bright sunlight then F16 or equivalent EV was the exposure for the day. For a light overcast day open a stop. For heavy overcast open another stop. For open shade open another stop. For deep shade open another stop.

His system was based on the fact that Edward Weston, so far as I know, never used a light meter and made some incredible images. It is entirely possible to learn to read light without the benefit of a meter. In fact I think that many would benefit from learning the practice for those times that a meter is unavailable (Ansel Adams' Moonrise over Hernendez) or when the batteries shoot craps.

Good luck I hope that this helps.

reellis67 · Apr 27, 2006

There is this site

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

Which may be what you are looking for. It's not a reproduction of old exposure tables, but it does address gauging light without a meter.

- Randy

avandesande · Apr 27, 2006

I have found it helpful to check your meter reading against sunny 16 and ask yourself why there is a difference.

gnashings · Apr 27, 2006

Even without holding on to the chart, I found Fred Parker's page very helpful. I learned a lot that I didn't know, and re-examined a lot of what I did know with a better understanding. Good read!

rhys · Apr 27, 2006

I have downloaded and printed his webpage (had to convert to word first though as it was going off the edge) and even then to print in landscape!

It looks very interesting indeed.

I'm toying with the idea of putting together a photographers' pocket book with all these tables etc in them. It'll be primarily for my own use but if others are interested - well, I'll see about that when and if it all comes together.

rhys · Apr 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Since most use light meters to determine exposure, it is probably not information that is published.

Fred Picker (founder of Zone VI) used a system called the Key Day system. A variation of the Sunny F 16 rule. His system went like this. If there were no clouds...bright sunlight then F16 or equivalent EV was the exposure for the day. For a light overcast day open a stop. For heavy overcast open another stop. For open shade open another stop. For deep shade open another stop.

His system was based on the fact that Edward Weston, so far as I know, never used a light meter and made some incredible images. It is entirely possible to learn to read light without the benefit of a meter. In fact I think that many would benefit from learning the practice for those times that a meter is unavailable (Ansel Adams' Moonrise over Hernendez) or when the batteries shoot craps.

Good luck I hope that this helps.

Thanks. Everybody's been so helpful. I'm mostly a digital photographer these days although I absolutely refuse to sell my 35mm Nikon outfit!

Stephen Benskin · Apr 27, 2006

Photographic Exposure Guide - ANSI PH2.7-1986

This guide is derived from the seminal paper by Loyd Jones in the late 40s.

photobum · Apr 27, 2006

Has everyone forgotten about the Kodak pocket photoguide? There was also the little Master photoguide and the bigger Professional photoguide. All three had an existing light exposure dial that covered everything from skyline at sunset to fireworks to Niagara falls under dark lights. The pro guide even has moonlighted landscapes. I don't leave home without one.

Do these digital imaging stores have these anymore? I know you can fine one at the photo shows.

Rhys you may be stepping on some Kodak copyrighted toes here. Watch out.

If you need an answer to a specific problem, give me a PM. I'll give you the Kodak answer. They were real good once.

rhys · Apr 27, 2006

photobum said:
Has everyone forgotten about the Kodak pocket photoguide? There was also the little Master photoguide and the bigger Professional photoguide. All three had an existing light exposure dial that covered everything from skyline at sunset to fireworks to Niagara falls under dark lights. The pro guide even has moonlighted landscapes. I don't leave home without one.

Do these digital imaging stores have these anymore? I know you can fine one at the photo shows.

Rhys you may be stepping on some Kodak copyrighted toes here. Watch out.

If you need an answer to a specific problem, give me a PM. I'll give you the Kodak answer. They were real good once.

Nope. Not going to infringe anybody's copyright but... I'll see if I can find that book.

There are formulae around to calculate Lunar and Solar positions at various times in the year. I must find out about that next :d

BradS · Apr 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Since most use light meters to determine exposure, it is probably not information that is published.

Fred Picker (founder of Zone VI) used a system called the Key Day system. A variation of the Sunny F 16 rule. His system went like this. If there were no clouds...bright sunlight then F16 or equivalent EV was the exposure for the day. For a light overcast day open a stop. For heavy overcast open another stop. For open shade open another stop. For deep shade open another stop.

ah, but....this is exactly the Sunny 16 rule.

Jim Jones · Apr 27, 2006

rhys said:
. . . There are formulae around to calculate Lunar and Solar positions at various times in the year. I must find out about that next :d

I use U.S.Naval Observatory and print out the data I expect to use.

Andy K · Apr 27, 2006

Years ago I made a sunny sixteen slide rule. See here and here. I no longer have the full tables but you may be able to enhance on the information on my sliderule.

Jim Jones · Apr 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
. . . Edward Weston, so far as I know, never used a light meter and made some incredible images.

Charis Wilson mentions Weston measuring light, and photographs of him show what certainly looks like a Weston Master meter case on his belt. He seemed to take pride in his simple equipment and techniques, but used whatever it took to make the photograph right.

Dave Miller · Apr 27, 2006

Ed Buffaloe has a article on this subject that may assist.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Exposure/exposure.html

Blighty · Apr 28, 2006

Hmm. This is getting a bit eerie! I was just about to post a question asking exactly the same thing (sunny sixteen etc.) Last week I was just about to ask about processing old films but someone pre empted me. Maybe higher forces at work here!

Donald Miller · Apr 28, 2006

BradS said:
ah, but....this is exactly the Sunny 16 rule.

No this is different for the following reason...the sunny 16 rule uses the published box speed of the film. The Picker method determines the EI as it applies to your equipment and materials.

Stephen Benskin · Apr 28, 2006

Loyd Jones and H.R. Condit wrote a paper for the Journal of the Optical Society of America in 1948 titled Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. It was published in two parts and combined is about 80 pages. It would not be an exageration to say this is the ultimate source for everything discussed on this thread. In addition, I don't think it's a coincidence that the first ASA standard of light meters was also release the same year this paper was published and that Jones was the chair on the light meter committee.

On the subject of light meters, the basic balanced exposure equation is:

A^2/T = BxS/K

where
A= aperture
T = shutter
B = luminance in footlambarts
S = film speed
K = constant

Here's the Sunny 16 example

16^2/ 1/125 = 297x125 / 1.16

this reduces down to

256/256 = 1

Donald Miller · Apr 28, 2006

Stephen Benskin said:
Loyd Jones and H.R. Condit wrote a paper for the Journal of the Optical Society of America in 1948 titled Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. It was published in two parts and combined is about 80 pages. It would not be an exageration to say this is the ultimate source for everything discussed on this thread. In addition, I don't think it's a coincidence that the first ASA standard of light meters was also release the same year this paper was published and that Jones was the chair on the light meter committee.

On the subject of light meters, the basic balanced exposure equation is:

A^2/T = BxS/K

where
A= aperture
T = shutter
B = luminance in footlambarts
S = film speed
K = constant

Here's the Sunny 16 example

16/ 1/125 = 297x125 / 1.16

this reduces down to

256/256 = 1

Stephen,

Where would one find the paper that you mentioned? Thanks for sharing this information.

Donald Miller · Apr 28, 2006

Andy K said:
Years ago I made a sunny sixteen slide rule. See here and here. I no longer have the full tables but you may be able to enhance on the information on my sliderule.

Andy, Thanks for posting this.

Stephen Benskin · Apr 28, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Stephen,

Where would one find the paper that you mentioned? Thanks for sharing this information.

Don,

Jones, L.A. and Condit, H.R., Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. I. Luminous Density as Determined by Solar Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions, JOSA, vol. 38, #2, Feb 1948.

and

Jones, L.A. and Condit, H.R., Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. II. Scene Structure, Directional Index, Photographic Efficiency of Daylight, Safety Factors, and Evaluation of Camera Exposure, JOSA, vol 39, #1, Feb 1949.

I got mine at UCLA in their science stacks. Any good size university should have it. If you don't have access, The Optical Society of America will make copies for you. It's expensive though. Even with gas prices where they are, it might be worth the drive to a distant university. Plus, you can use this paper's extensive bib to find other good stuff to copy while you're there.

A word of warning. These papers are deadly dull. There's more in the second paper for us photographers to use, but the first is good to have just to understand what Sunny means and for those times you have trouble getting to sleep.

Steve

avandesande · Apr 28, 2006

Be careful with the recommendations... the advice for snow/sand is exactly the opposite of what I would do.

Dave Miller said:
Ed Buffaloe has a article on this subject that may assist.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Exposure/exposure.html

Donald Miller · Apr 28, 2006

Stephen Benskin said:
Don,

Jones, L.A. and Condit, H.R., Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. I. Luminous Density as Determined by Solar Altitude and Atmospheric Conditions, JOSA, vol. 38, #2, Feb 1948.

and

Jones, L.A. and Condit, H.R., Sunlight and Skylight as Determinants of Photographic Exposure. II. Scene Structure, Directional Index, Photographic Efficiency of Daylight, Safety Factors, and Evaluation of Camera Exposure, JOSA, vol 39, #1, Feb 1949.

I got mine at UCLA in their science stacks. Any good size university should have it. If you don't have access, The Optical Society of America will make copies for you. It's expensive though. Even with gas prices where they are, it might be worth the drive to a distant university. Plus, you can use this paper's extensive bib to find other good stuff to copy while you're there.

A word of warning. These papers are deadly dull. There's more in the second paper for us photographers to use, but the first is good to have just to understand what Sunny means and for those times you have trouble getting to sleep.

Steve

Steve. Thanks...I will check at ASU...

Jim Jones · Apr 28, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Stephen,

Where would one find the paper that you mentioned? Thanks for sharing this information.

try http://www.opticsinfobase.org/abstract.cfm?id=77557

Erwin · Apr 28, 2006

Lattitude

Hi,

I used the sunny 16 (or even 22) rule a lot in South Africa (using a meterless Praktica) , but since moving to England my meters seem to suggest that, especially in winter (even mid day), a sunny 11 rule is probably more realistic. I did not follow all the links, so apologies if this was covered elsewhere; just interested if others have had similar experience.

Sunny 16 onwards

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