Summar 5cm F2 blades

Hello everyone,

I'm thinking about buying an old Summar 5cm F2, but the pictures on the one I found leave me perplexed. I don't understand why the aperture blades would look like that on the first photo. The store answered by saying : "The aperture blades are working perfectly, as indicated in the listing. The position visible in photo 3 is simply the aperture partially closed and may look unusual because of the angle of the picture, but there is no issue with the diaphragm. The optics are in good condition for their age. There is no fungus. There may be very light internal signs consistent with vintage lenses, but nothing that affects normal use".
So, is it normal to find blades in that position ??

Thank you beforehand for your answer !

I think that is just an abnormal reflection. I bet the aperture blades were not adjusted between photos so the second photo is how they should look from the rear.

If the aperture blades were messed it, it would be apparent in both photos.

That front element, however, looks like it may be a bit hazy.

I agree with @Don_ih that we're just looking at some odd reflections due to how the lens was illuminated for the photo.

Also, the photos are just pretty poor quality so everything looks more fuzzy and hazy than it may in reality be. The front element does look a little funny, but it may just be an old uncoated lens (a quick search shows this is a lens from the 1930s and is indeed uncoated). The lack of lens coatings can cause flare also in a product shot if lighting is not managed well, as is evidently the case here. It's the same as photographing a window on a house which may reflect sky, water etc. and make everything inside look a little hazy or even entirely invisible.

Don_ih said:

I think that is just an abnormal reflection. I bet the aperture blades were not adjusted between photos so the second photo is how they should look from the rear.

If the aperture blades were messed it, it would be apparent in both photos.

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Don_ih said:

That front element, however, looks like it may be a bit hazy.

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koraks said:

I agree with @Don_ih that we're just looking at some odd reflections due to how the lens was illuminated for the photo.

Also, the photos are just pretty poor quality so everything looks more fuzzy and hazy than it may in reality be. The front element does look a little funny, but it may just be an old uncoated lens (a quick search shows this is a lens from the 1930s and is indeed uncoated). The lack of lens coatings can cause flare also in a product shot if lighting is not managed well, as is evidently the case here. It's the same as photographing a window on a house which may reflect sky, water etc. and make everything inside look a little hazy or even entirely invisible.

Click to expand...

Thank you both for your answer ! That is reassuring.
It is sold by a generally reliable store (RCE Foto, in Europe), but at 190 euros, it's almost half the price of any other Summar or Summitar I could find, so I was wondering if something might be off with it. I wonder if I should ask them for a few more pictures, just to be sure...

Yes, that lens is uncoated. The edges looks dirty - which may be on the outside. The glass in a Summar is softer than contemporary lenses and cleaning can easily make fine scratches. I'd ask for a better photo that shows the surface.

It's nowhere near as good as a Summitar, by the way. But it will definitely give photos the Summar-look (fuzzy and low-contrast).

Yaeli said:

I wonder if I should ask them for a few more pictures, just to be sure...

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Why bother? If you want it, just order it online from them. If you don't like it, you can send it back within 14 days. It's EU after all, so EU legislation applies and that's very much in your favor here.

Don_ih said:

Yes, that lens is uncoated. The edges looks dirty - which may be on the outside. The glass in a Summar is softer than contemporary lenses and cleaning can easily make fine scratches. I'd ask for a better photo that shows the surface.

It's nowhere near as good as a Summitar, by the way. But it will definitely give photos the Summar-look (fuzzy and low-contrast).

Click to expand...

I've asked them for a few more pictures of the blades closed down, and of the front element.
I have seen some comparisons between the Summar and Summitar, and I hesitate between the two. The Summitar seems even softer wide open, especially in the corners, but better stopped down than the Summar. It does have a very distinct background look that is wonderful in black and white, though... The 10 blade version would be a must, but I cannot find a good one at a reasonable price here - they're all 6 blades like the Summar, so...

koraks said:

Why bother? If you want it, just order it online from them. If you don't like it, you can send it back within 14 days. It's EU after all, so EU legislation applies and that's very much in your favor here.

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I'd rather avoid the hassle of waiting, testing, sending back, and having to look for another one, if I can avoid it. But yes, it's definitely great to have the option to send back. Plus, in this case, it comes with a 6 months warranty too, so I'm not taking much risks anyway.

The internal haze is common thing in this vintage lens due to helicoid grease residual evaporation.
Collapsible Summar 50/2 is nice lens with prominent character.

Yaeli said:

I'd rather avoid the hassle of waiting, testing, sending back, and having to look for another one, if I can avoid it. But yes, it's definitely great to have the option to send back. Plus, in this case, it comes with a 6 months warranty too, so I'm not taking much risks anyway.

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The alternative is that you ask for more photos, they're likely not conclusive again because, after all, they're still just photos, so you end up purchasing the lens so you can have a proper look at it. For everyone involved the quickest solution is to just order the lens since there's a very good chance that the description is faithful and the lens is just fine (within the inherent limitations of a 90-year old product).

Vaidotas said:

The internal haze

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It's presently not clear if there's any internal haze. The only way to tell for sure is to...wait for it...inspect the lens in person. Hence my recommendation above.

Yaeli said:

Hello everyone,

I'm thinking about buying an old Summar 5cm F2, but the pictures on the one I found leave me perplexed. I don't understand why the aperture blades would look like that on the first photo. The store answered by saying : "The aperture blades are working perfectly, as indicated in the listing. The position visible in photo 3 is simply the aperture partially closed and may look unusual because of the angle of the picture, but there is no issue with the diaphragm. The optics are in good condition for their age. There is no fungus. There may be very light internal signs consistent with vintage lenses, but nothing that affects normal use".
So, is it normal to find blades in that position ??

Thank you beforehand for your answer !

Click to expand...

I'd stay away from it.

Yaeli said:

I have seen some comparisons between the Summar and Summitar, and I hesitate between the two. The Summitar seems even softer wide open, especially in the corners, but better stopped down than the Summar.

Click to expand...

I'd be inclined to ignore such things. Comparing a pristine Summar with a scratched-up Summitar will give you the results you cite. I have a pristine copies of both. The Summar never gets used. The Summitar:



Almost wide open (2.8 - handheld, 1/30th - mounted on the close-up adapter)



I don't think that counts as soft.

I have three Summar's, one has very obvious coating mottling and flares nicely as in the examples below. Notice around the window frame and similar dark/light transitions. I believe Summars in general will 'glow' to varying degrees depending on the front element condition...this example being severe.

Vaidotas said:

The internal haze is common thing in this vintage lens due to helicoid grease residual evaporation.
Collapsible Summar 50/2 is nice lens with prominent character.

Click to expand...

Almost all of those I've seen for sale have some amount of haze, yes. Even on the official Leica store that shows all second hand lenses in Europe, they note it : "has some haze", "slight haze", etc...
But I do love the images I've seen taken with it (or with the Summitar).

koraks said:

The alternative is that you ask for more photos, they're likely not conclusive again because, after all, they're still just photos, so you end up purchasing the lens so you can have a proper look at it. For everyone involved the quickest solution is to just order the lens since there's a very good chance that the description is faithful and the lens is just fine (within the inherent limitations of a 90-year old product).

Click to expand...

I hear you. The only thing is : I've made several purchases recently that didn't turn out well, and I'm kinda tired of sending things back and forth all the time. Depending on the pictures they send, I'll either be fully reassured, or, if I have any doubt left, I'll go for the Summitar I found on the Leica website, despite it being 200 euros more expensive.

Don_ih said:

I'd be inclined to ignore such things. Comparing a pristine Summar with a scratched-up Summitar will give you the results you cite. I have a pristine copies of both. The Summar never gets used.

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I am very, very new to the world of Leica lenses. I have very little knowledge about any of them, and this comparison was only in one video, and could very well be, like you say, because of the state of the lens, or even some error from the user during the shoot. The only reason I'm even looking at Leica lenses is because I want a certain look that comes (if I understand correctly) from the lack of coatings and from spherical aberrations, and there aren't many lenses that fit that bill apart from pre war Leica lenses, apparently (though I might be wrong here too... I tend to be wrong a lot in this particular field). I have been looking at the Jupiter 8 too, though, which is dirt cheap and seems to give decent results too (though not quite as good as what I've seen from old Leica lenses).

Saganich said:

I have three Summar's, one has very obvious coating mottling and flares nicely as in the examples below. Notice around the window frame and similar dark/light transitions. I believe Summars in general will 'glow' to varying degrees depending on the front element condition...this example being severe.

Click to expand...

Ah, so it has more to do with the front element's condition than with the actual optical formula ?
It is indeed very noticeable in the examples you've shared !

Yaeli said:

The only reason I'm even looking at Leica lenses is because I want a certain look that comes (if I understand correctly) from the lack of coatings and from spherical aberrations

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So, on film or on digital?

Anyway, I doubt you'll get a "certain look" from a Summitar. If you do, it's because of condition. You will get a definite look from a Summar. I think it's well displayed by @Saganich above.

Don_ih said:

So, on film or on digital?

Anyway, I doubt you'll get a "certain look" from a Summitar. If you do, it's because of condition. You will get a definite look from a Summar. I think it's well displayed by @Saganich above.

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On digital. And that is very good to know, thank you ! I thought both would give a similar "low contrast + tendency to flare / glow" look, but again, I know very, very little about Leica lenses overall, so I might be completely wrong here.