Suggestions for old folder

mjs · May 23, 2008

Hi, there! I'd like to get an inexpensive folder 6x7, 6x8, or 6x9, to stick in my pocket when I'm out and about but not necessarily intending to photograph. I'd like the lens to be good enough that I could enlarge it a bit, onto 8x10 paper, for example (whatever image size fits on that size.) (Low) price is important; I can't afford to even spell "Hasselblad".

Darn, there goes next week's lunch!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm most a large format guy, although I have a Mamiya 645 which I haven't used in a couple of years, but this folder stuff is all new to me. Pocketable and that large, rectangular negative are the attractions for me.

Thanks!

Mike

Paul Goutiere · May 23, 2008

An inexpensive, usable folder to fit your pocket. How big are your pockets and what is your price range?

The best deal on a folder would have to be a Moskva 4 or 5. Take 120 film and can be focused (6x9). From $80 - $200.
Then there is the Kodak Tourist cameras (6x9) which take 620 film (respool 120) but many have bellows leaks. (and have to be replaced) From $5.00 to $50.00.

I can fit my Moskva 5 into a large coat pocket and it is a little larger than a Kodak Tourist. The images from both cameras are quite good.

These are the cameras I am familiar with, I'm sure others will be chiming in with other options as well, like Agfas etc.

bennoj · May 23, 2008

In general, your format choices for an old folder are 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9. I don't recall ever seeing one in 6x7. Most folders have 3 or 4 element lenses, both of which are generally good enough for enlargements to 11x14. Zeiss-Ikon (Tessar preferred over Novar lenses), Agfa/Ansco (Solinar preferred over Agnar lenses), and Russian Moskva folding cameras are easy to find on the auction site for reasonable prices in usable shape (be sure that the focus ring on Agfa/Ansco cameras is not frozen, although it's a relatively easy fix). Despite the name cachet, Schneider Radionar lenses are not the greatest and show up on a lot of lower-end folders. Not that you can't get good results with them, but don't let the Schneider name suck you in. Built-in rangefinders (coupled and uncoupled) will drive up the price, but when I was shooting regularly with this kind of camera 6-7 years ago I found that after a short time I was able to estimate distance quite accurately. Accessory rangefinders are also fairly easy to find.

Fotoguy20d · May 23, 2008

Paul Goutiere said:
Then there is the Kodak Tourist cameras (6x9) which take 620 film (respool 120) but many have bellows leaks. (and have to be replaced) From $5.00 to $50.00.
QUOTE]

In the Tourist, make sure to find one with a coated Anastigmat lens. Mine has a 105mm f4.5. Seems to be quite a capable lens, fairly similar to the 101mm f4.5 Ektar. The only issue I have with mine is that the shutter release mechanism is out of whack and so the button doesn't work and you need to push the lever on the lens directly.

Another option might be an Ihagee Ultrix - I think that one uses 120, but I could be wrong. There's also the Ihagee Parvola - nice and small but uses 127 and only yields 6x4.5 or 4x3 depending on model.

Murray@uptowngallery · May 23, 2008

I can't remember the name, but there are a couple older Japanese 6x4.5 folders people like.

Agfa's have sturdy folding mechanisms but the bellows don't hold up terribly well, from what I read...possibility of repair needed upon receipt.

I second the Kodak Anastigmat lens recommendation.

Especially if you have 6x9, not a bad idea with a 6x6, open the folder before winding. The bellows opening can suck the film away from the film plane, resulting in random focus problems if the film is left 'bubbled' or bowed slightly toward the lens.

Also, remember the Tessar types. and possibly the triplets, need to be stopped down to at least f/11 if you don't want focus surprises in the corners...a common complaint from people who didn't realize that...it's easy to get spoiled with more modern lenses and forget.

Murray

Murray@uptowngallery · May 23, 2008

Oh, if a Moskva 5 is aligned and the RF mirror has an image that you can see in bright sunlight, the coupled RF is nice. Some of the Agfa's (Record III off the top of my head) have an uncoupled RF with a wheel; you read the split screen focus distance and then set the front lens cell distance to match.

A lot of the lesser cameras just have scale focus where you either estimate distance or judiciously use DOF charts or hyperfocal distances.

ntenny · May 23, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
A lot of the lesser cameras just have scale focus where you either estimate distance or judiciously use DOF charts or hyperfocal distances.

...all of which builds character, and makes you appreciate the successful shots more.

I think the older lenses show more sample-to-sample variation than we're used to with modern ones. Every now and then you find a triplet that on paper should be a pretty blah lens, but that just has the magic somehow.

To my mind, the lower-end MF folders are so cheap that it's worth buying half a dozen of them, in the expectation of getting one or two that might be pretty good. Some of those I've bought in this way are pretty dodgy, but only one or two are strictly paperweights.

-NT

moose10101 · May 23, 2008

6x6:

Voigtlander Perkeo - this one really will fit in your pocket
Agfa Isolette/Ansco Speedex Special (Apotar or Solinar lens) - bellows usually bad
Zeiss Ikonta 521/16

6x9

Zeiss Ikonta C
Agfa Record
Voigtlander Bessa ($$$)
Kodak Tourist or Monitor (620 film)

6x9 cameras are not convenient to carry in your pocket "just in case". The only camera that fits that criterion is the Perkeo (6x6).

david b · May 23, 2008

Got this for $30 on ebay

6x9 nice

Dan Fromm · May 23, 2008

Um, I have a Perkeo II with 80/3.5 Color-Skopar. I like using even though the viewfinder is tiny and seems to show less than the lens sees it but the results are only so-so. The lens isn't great or I'm unsteady, haven't asked which it is properly yet. But the camera is tiny and nice to use ...

Also an Ensign Selfix 620 with 105/3.8 Xpres. Really too big for most pockets and, again, the lens is so-so. I've tested already, I'm not the problem. But the finder is spectacular. I have a 12-20 as well, with broken shutter. Not as pocketable as the Perkeo II (or P I or Bessa 66) but again has a much better finder.

Cheers,

Dan

jeff.blackwell · May 23, 2008

Speaking from experience:

1. Voigtlander Perkeo, especially the Perkeo II, is an excellent choice for a small folder. I've carried one for years, and have even added a Century Optics 0.65X wide angle convertor to the lens on occasion. Then I simply back focus by 1/3, and I have the equivalent of a 55mm lens on the Perkeo, as well as the standard 80 mm. And while the Century Optics convertors are pricey, unlike the vast majority of similar products, they cost you NO LIGHT. Not even a fraction of a stop.

2. Certo 6. A great folder with a fast acting film advance crank, as opposed to the far slower film advance knobs on most of the folders. It has a great Zeiss lens as well, but these cameras usually need service.

3. Any Zeiss Super Ikonta, although the standard Ikontas are ok, the newer Super Ikontas have rangefinders and are built like tanks.

You can find out much more about virtually all folding cameras at www.certo6.com. The proprietor of the site also sells folders, and while you might find cheaper prices on ebay, he services the cameras he sells, and stands behind them.

HerrBremerhaven · May 23, 2008

AGFA and Ansco folders are fairly common and easy to find at low prices. Unfortunately, many are in need of repairs, or a replacement bellows. You can also interchange some parts from some of these with Balda folder cameras, which gives you another alternative. If you want to try repairing on your own, you will have more low cost options, though I suggest buying two or three to get enough spare parts to make one really good camera.

I am fairly amazed at the old 6x9 folder camera results, even with supposedly inferior triplet lenses. Cleaned, light tight, and scale focused reasonably well, the results can be impressive. That shot was from a $10 AGFA 6x9 folder, though obviously lots of repair time and an NOS bellows made it capable of doing this. Compare to this 6x4.5 shot from my 1937 AGFA Jsollette. While the smaller camera is more my favorite, and easier to pocket, the bigger film area on the 6x9 makes a difference on any larger prints. However, if I needed something for a two page spread in a magazine, that old AGFA 6x4.5 will handle that with ease. Oh, and just a note, both those shots were on transparency films, which shows that it is possible to get the shutter speeds very accurate, predictable, and repeatable.

The cheaper versions will have slower lenses and less choice in shutter speeds. Some will have a flash sync post. Better shutters are the Prontor SVS and Synchro Compur or Compur Rapid. While an f4.5 aperture lens sounds great, you will have a greater chance of focus error at larger aperture openings and closer distances. The smaller aperture lenses tend to come in the cheaper shutters with less speeds, and tend to go for less money.

If you look for an accessory rangefinder, you will find many that can fit into the cold shoe on the folder camera. The best I have found are the Präzisa variety, and I have several. There are also many of these made by Kodak that seem to be easy to calibrate. Of course, with a little practice, you can safely do without and get very good at guessing distances. Focus error becomes more of an issue at closer distances.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography

Dan Fromm · May 23, 2008

Jeff, would you please give more detail about how you use a w/a adapter on y'r Perkeo II? Also, which of Century's many w/a adapters do you have?

6x14 · May 24, 2008

Old ready to go folders:

Kodak #1 Jr- 120 6x9
ANSCO #1 - 120 6x9
Kodak #2 Hawkeye - 120 6x9
Solida III Franka - 120 - 6x9
Agfa Billy Record - 120 - 6x9
Zeiss Ikonta [older] - 120 6x9
Zeiss Ikon Nettar - 120 - 6x9
Agfa Isolette II - 120 6x6

Stick with the non-rangefinder cameras. No one usually wants them and they can be had cheap, Too bad, they still take great photo's!

regards

mjs said:
Hi, there! I'd like to get an inexpensive folder 6x7, 6x8, or 6x9, to stick in my pocket when I'm out and about but not necessarily intending to photograph. I'd like the lens to be good enough that I could enlarge it a bit, onto 8x10 paper, for example (whatever image size fits on that size.) (Low) price is important; I can't afford to even spell "Hasselblad".

Darn, there goes next week's lunch!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm most a large format guy, although I have a Mamiya 645 which I haven't used in a couple of years, but this folder stuff is all new to me. Pocketable and that large, rectangular negative are the attractions for me.

Thanks!

Mike

mjs · May 28, 2008

Sorry for the lack of response -- my wife came home Saturday with a 5x7 Seneca #9 dry plate camera, discovered that she can't sell it for a profit and gave it to me. Now I'm investigating the making of dry plates for it. *grin* The folder project will have to wait a few weeks... months... maybe this fall?

Mike

keithwms · May 28, 2008

I have an ancient Zeiss Ikon with plate back that cost me, I dunno, maybe $50? Very cute little implement. I was thinking about modifying the back for roll film or maybe just 3 1/4" sheet. The thing certainly folds up to pocket size. I did have thoughts of replacing the lens with something a bit sharper and with a better shutter.

ntenny · May 28, 2008

mjs said:
Sorry for the lack of response -- my wife came home Saturday with a 5x7 Seneca #9 dry plate camera, discovered that she can't sell it for a profit and gave it to me.

I gotta say, it sounds like you have the best marriage ever.

-NT

Chazzy · May 28, 2008

mjs said:
Hi, there! I'd like to get an inexpensive folder 6x7, 6x8, or 6x9, to stick in my pocket when I'm out and about but not necessarily intending to photograph. I'd like the lens to be good enough that I could enlarge it a bit, onto 8x10 paper, for example (whatever image size fits on that size.) (Low) price is important; I can't afford to even spell "Hasselblad".

Darn, there goes next week's lunch!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm most a large format guy, although I have a Mamiya 645 which I haven't used in a couple of years, but this folder stuff is all new to me. Pocketable and that large, rectangular negative are the attractions for me.

Thanks!

Mike

Mike, you're welcome to look at my Ercona II any time you would like. They go very cheaply on eBay, but I think it's realistic to expect the need for a CLA. I would show you my Moskva 5, but it's getting a CLA right now. The Ercona II goes next.

mjs · May 29, 2008

Chazzy said:
Mike, you're welcome to look at my Ercona II any time you would like. They go very cheaply on eBay, but I think it's realistic to expect the need for a CLA. I would show you my Moskva 5, but it's getting a CLA right now. The Ercona II goes next.

Hi, Charles! We need to have lunch some time. I'll show you my new dry plate camera and you can show me what an Ercona II looks like. At the same auction she bought the Seneca at, she did not buy a Ciroflex twin lens reflex because she said the shutter didn't work.

Mike

Chazzy · May 29, 2008

mjs said:
Hi, Charles! We need to have lunch some time. I'll show you my new dry plate camera and you can show me what an Ercona II looks like. At the same auction she bought the Seneca at, she did not buy a Ciroflex twin lens reflex because she said the shutter didn't work.

Mike

I want to drool over the Wehman, too.

JackGreen · May 30, 2008

jeff.blackwell said:
Speaking from experience:

1. Voigtlander Perkeo, especially the Perkeo II, is an excellent choice for a small folder. I've carried one for years, and have even added a Century Optics 0.65X wide angle convertor to the lens on occasion. Then I simply back focus by 1/3, and I have the equivalent of a 55mm lens on the Perkeo, as well as the standard 80 mm. And while the Century Optics convertors are pricey, unlike the vast majority of similar products, they cost you NO LIGHT. Not even a fraction of a stop.

2. Certo 6. A great folder with a fast acting film advance crank, as opposed to the far slower film advance knobs on most of the folders. It has a great Zeiss lens as well, but these cameras usually need service.

3. Any Zeiss Super Ikonta, although the standard Ikontas are ok, the newer Super Ikontas have rangefinders and are built like tanks.

You can find out much more about virtually all folding cameras at www.certo6.com. The proprietor of the site also sells folders, and while you might find cheaper prices on ebay, he services the cameras he sells, and stands behind them.

I can concur with the above with the exception last sentence of the last paragraph..I bought a camera there and sent it back for repair..It's been a year with little communication in spite of several attempts on my part to find out what's going on.. I don't know what the problem is.

mjs · Jun 1, 2008

Chazzy said:
I want to drool over the Wehman, too.

I'm sorry to disappoint you: I sold it a few weeks ago. It's a lovely camera, eminently drool-able and I'd be happy with it for a very long time... if I could afford a significant quantity of 8x10 film. But with price increases and some family needs (including the sudden need to support my mother-in-law,) I can afford maybe 100 sheets of 8x10 film a year, and that won't do it for me. Given the price difference, I can buy quite a bit of 4x5 film for the price of 100 sheets of T-max 400 or HP5+, so I've dropped back to that for the time being.

With the money from the sale of the Wehman I paid my son's last month's rent from school, a month's worth of groceries for my mother-in-law, bought a Zone VI 4x5 from Jim at Midwest Photo so I can semi-permanently retire my old Calumet CC-400 monorail, bought some 4x5 film, and, purely by chance, bought a nice 12" Ektar lens which came with a lovely B&J 8x10 monorail attached. So I'm not completely out of my favorite format, just kinda sitting on it for a while, until I can afford film for it again.

Mike

IloveTLRs · Jun 3, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
I can't remember the name, but there are a couple older Japanese 6x4.5 folders people like.

I don't remember if I replied on this thread or not. I have a Minolta Semi-P which is a small folding 6x4.5 camera (Japanese.) No RF, scale focus, hyperfocal marks (bonus!), speeds of B to 300, f3.5 to 16 (possibly 22.)

It's a nice little camera and very, very basic. I paid about $50 for it (since no one wants them anymore ) Fits in my pocket or a bag well and takes some nice photos. I can't tell if the lens is coated or not but it takes nice color photos, too.

Googling "Minolta Semi-P" will bring up my blog and some sample photos I've taken.

Ole · Jun 3, 2008

Murray@uptowngallery said:
I can't remember the name, but there are a couple older Japanese 6x4.5 folders people like.

That would be the Daiichi Zenobia. I have one, and I like it. The Neo-Hesper lens is a good coated Tessar-type lens.

thuggins · Jun 4, 2008

Olympus Chrome Six. All of mine came with perfect bellows and dead on shutter speeds - after 60 years! If you can find the Chrome Six III, you get Olympus' innovative film tensioning mechanism. You will need a big pocket, though.

Suggestions for old folder

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