Suggestions for a faulty Pentax 67?

batwister · Feb 16, 2013

I've posted a couple of threads about this camera over the past few months.

I'm not prepared to badmouth the repairer - yet - as I'd like to send it back one last time. I'm not getting my hopes up.
It's been sent to them three times for the same issue and each time I was told "it was fine when it left us". The problem is a sticky shutter btw.

It's partially fixed; the shutter now only sticks between 15th and 60th, so I'm getting away with most landscape work at slower speeds. Portraiture is (literally) a shot in the dark.
I do have to wonder why they keep sending it back when the problem remains. What are they gaining when they know I have no choice but to send it back? Wasting my time & postage money and their own?
There aren't any other options that I'm aware of for Pentax repairs - these guys have all the parts available.

Just to sum up the problem; the shutter dial isn't locking properly on 15/30/60/Bulb speed settings. When I nudge the dial, the shutter drops.

What can I do with this camera? I know I'll be cautioned against having a look inside the body myself, but I'm weary about sending it off to hear the same thing - and potentially unnecessary labour costs.
I don't like the idea of selling it on for spares either, since it works under 60% of circumstances.

snederhiser · Feb 16, 2013

Hello;
Quit beating a dead horse, you can send this guy the camera a hundred times with the same result! I would see about a camera repair manual, and repair myself. At least get some opinions from a few fella's from your neck of the woods, Steven.

tkamiya · Feb 16, 2013

I bet they are hoping you'd give up and go elsewhere. If you sent it 3 times and still not fixed, or come back with different issues each time, it is clear indication that they either don't care or don't know how to do it correctly. Sending it one more time won't resolve the issue. If it did, it will purely by chance.

At this point, I would be demanding my money back or file a claim at a credit card company and send it elsewhere.

paul ron · Feb 17, 2013

Find another reapir shop!. .when it is all fixed.. small claims court is your friend.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 17, 2013

The Goldilocks Asahi-Pentax and later, modern take, Pentax 67 bodies are very difficult repair jobs. Inside these behemoths is a lot like a watch and just as tiny. A heavy drop will dislodge, unlink or misalign all the business in there and it is very, very time consuming to track it down, which is why so many repair shops say they have fixed it but yet lack the tenacity to go really deep down, irrespective of the cost of doing so. The shutter dial speeds are controlled by resistors. It's a known fact that keeping the shutter cocked for an extended period of time will make shutter speeds inaccurate.

You would be paying a fortune for labour, not parts: inside are lengths of wire, resistors, a solitary capacitor, hundreds of springs, pawls, clips, cogs, gears and pulleys — all harking back to literally the horse and buggy era! The only concession to modern electronics is the little red LED on the top cover. The shutter and mriror operate by way of solenoids and magnets exchanging power through a rudimentary circuit of contacts all coming back to the the shutter speed dial. Mirror and shutter magnets will expectedly 'lose their grip', so to speak, over many years and thousands and thousands of exposures (there is a very vulnerable and known problematic magnet directly under the shutter button that often required deguassing). There are no integrated circuits or fancy electronics, just good old clockwork on a small and complex scale (a good reason why it's not DIY ). Pentax itself does not offer a repair service for any 67 bodies partly because such a repair would most likely well exceed the cost of the camera itself, but also that no spare parts in back inventory are available — they would have to be cannabalised from another 67 body. So... a 67 body playing up will essentially have to remain like that until you come across another as a replacement. It's all very gloomy and it's what I keep in mind with my own: the reality is these cameras are now very old and many, many will require repair quite extensive repairs at some stage.

adelorenzo · Feb 18, 2013

Obviously you are in the UK but here in Canada Pentax has parts and still services almost everything. I have a 645N and lens with them right now. They only list the pre-1975 Dead Link Removed.

The only other place I have ever considered sending a camera is Eric Henderson in the United States who has an excellent reputation for repairing old Pentax cameras.

benjiboy · Feb 18, 2013

You could contact this company http://www.asahiphoto.co.uk/repairs.htm but as with any camera of that age it will probably cost more that it's worth on the open market to have it fully serviced, you have to make the decision basically if having a reliable working camera is worth more to you than the money.

jovo · Feb 18, 2013

A used P67 body in "ex" condition from KEH lists for $364. If you're looking at that kind of expense for repair, consider getting a different body. PDJ's description of the complexity of the thing would deter me from having mine repaired except by Pentax if they even offer the service in the US.

batwister · Feb 18, 2013

I've actually just bought the 67 body from 10speeduk. Hopefully this will keep me going for a while. Thanks for the post, Poisson. I'm starting to understand why they are relatively cheap and unpopular. It's just a shame that it's so easy to get hooked on the images, isn't it? Knowing I have the good old reliable Hasselblad is the only thing giving me peace of mind at this point.

Any problems with the new body might mean the end of my Pentax adventures. It's been too long since I made pictures without that feeling of looming catastrophe.

And benjiboy, this is the place I dealt with.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 18, 2013

On the pentaxforum.com website there are photos here and there showing magnified views of left and right of the mirror box (one somewhere also shows what's under the top cover), just to give an indication of what you're up against identifying things that are and may not be working correctly. Very few wires. I have not been able to find the photos but think they related to a sticking mirror, which is often caused by foam inside the mirror box deteriorating and making its way inside the camera where it drums up trouble. Re-skinning after repair is a very tedious and fraught process (very aggressive adhesive that hides tiny screws); DIY types often by new skins from eBay and cut to size. Personally and frankly, if my 67 starts misbehaving, it's take a deep breath and say, "thanks for the company, babe!" and discard it. And move on to something else. For now, it is "the chosen one", LOL!

A mint condition Pentax 67 body with L/ wooden grip was listed on eBay here in Australia yesterday, for AUD$750. Separate listings for a 105mm f2.8 ($250), 90mm f2.8 ($300), wooden grip etc appeared to have all been sold when I found them with 3 hours to go before finishing. I would have pounced on that camera as a second body if not for existing financial commitments (new tyres for car of the same cost) — or at least the 90mm lens, drrrrrat!!

batwister · Feb 18, 2013

Poisson Du Jour said:
Personally and frankly, if my 67 starts misbehaving, it's take a deep breath and say, "thanks for the company, babe!" and discard it. And move on to something else. For now, it is "the chosen one", LOL!

Seeing as I've come to know you as 'Mr. Pentax 67' this is a very sobering statement! It wasn't so easy for Gollum...

paul ron · Feb 18, 2013

A quick question.. I'm not familiar with P67s so bear with me but
aren't there lenses with shutters in em that you can use instead of the internal shutter of the body?

Can that be the cure all to your porblem?

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 18, 2013

paul ron said:
A quick question.. I'm not familiar with P67s so bear with me but
aren't there lenses with shutters in em that you can use instead of the internal shutter of the body?

Can that be the cure all to your porblem?

No.
You are referring to the two leaf-shutter lenses, being the 90mm and 165mm (both f4). These are handy for raising the 67's pitiful x-sync from 1/30 to 1/60, 1/125, 1/250 or 1/500, by direct connection of flash to the lens (in leaf shutter mode).

There is still a fundamental requirement for a shutter in the camera body even with leaf shutter lenses (which can be used as normal lenses at any other time). In leaf shutter mode the camera-side shutter speed is set to 1/8 second while the leaf shutter on the lens is set to your desired sync speed (as mentioned earlier). You think that's all a bit confusing? Try doing it in a hurry! And if you do get it wrong, and do not follow procedure, it can damage the leaf shutter, the mirror, the camera shutter or all three!

paul ron · Feb 19, 2013

ummm I see..

but if his shutter is inacurate but still works in slower speeds despite their accuracy, the leaf shuitters will at least guarantee him correct exposures insterad of chancy crap shots.

I hear they also make nice boat anchors.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 19, 2013

paul ron said:
ummm I see..

but if his shutter is inacurate but still works in slower speeds despite their accuracy, the leaf shuitters will at least guarantee him correct exposures insterad of chancy crap shots.

I hear they also make nice boat anchors.

No.
The camera shutter and leaf shutter must together be accurate or the overall exposure will be out. The sole purpose of a leaf shutter is higher syncronisation with flash; it will not guarantee any correct exposure if there is a fault with the shutter on the camera side; in fact, the camera may not fire at all.

batwister · Feb 19, 2013

Poisson Du Jour said:
In leaf shutter mode the camera-side shutter speed is set to 1/8 second while the leaf shutter on the lens is set to your desired sync speed (as mentioned earlier).

I should reiterate that the speed dial is the problem - which doesn't lock the mechanism properly at 1/15, 1/30 and 1/60 - essentially, when set at these speeds, it's actually in between speeds.

If you are saying the body has to be set at 1/8, this should work, as this speed consistently locks accurately. Again, manually changing speeds to 1/15, 1/30 and 1/60 messes things up, because the speed dial is locking the mechanism in between speeds at these settings. If the leaf shutter lens 'takes over' from the speed dial I believe there's a good chance the 90mm would kick the body into action? Hope you understand me.

Something else I should add is when in dry fire mode, pressing the shutter rapidly and cycling between speeds, all the speeds work fine and the shutter never sticks, as if I'm quickly shovelling coal into the furnace - the engine chugs along. When film is loaded, and naturally, changing speeds and pressing the shutter is more random with long intervals (looking for pictures), the camera becomes dumb. Such an odd piece of equipment. But anyway, from this idiosyncracy I know the speeds themselves are accurate.

paul ron · Feb 19, 2013

Well I know why I love my RB so much... not complicated n built like a tank.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 20, 2013

batwister said:
I should reiterate that the speed dial is the problem - which doesn't lock the mechanism properly at 1/15, 1/30 and 1/60 - essentially, when set at these speeds, it's actually in between speeds.

If you are saying the body has to be set at 1/8, this should work, as this speed consistently locks accurately. Again, manually changing speeds to 1/15, 1/30 and 1/60 messes things up, because the speed dial is locking the mechanism in between speeds at these settings. If the leaf shutter lens 'takes over' from the speed dial I believe there's a good chance the 90mm would kick the body into action? Hope you understand me.

Something else I should add is when in dry fire mode, pressing the shutter rapidly and cycling between speeds, all the speeds work fine and the shutter never sticks, as if I'm quickly shovelling coal into the furnace - the engine chugs along. When film is loaded, and naturally, changing speeds and pressing the shutter is more random with long intervals (looking for pictures), the camera becomes dumb. Such an odd piece of equipment. But anyway, from this idiosyncracy I know the speeds themselves are accurate.

The 67 body is only required to be set at 1/8 sec on the dial when a leaf shutter mode is engaged. At any other time its selection is arbitrary, e.g. if the aperture is set as desired and the meter needle is brought up to mid-line if the shutter speed is set to 1/8.

All Pentax 67 bodies have the intended design function of not firing the shutter unless there is a film loaded in the chamber.
If the camera can be dry fired no film loaded, the safety pawl that governs the shutter release and wind-on is obviously broken, or it has been tampered with. The only way of overriding the function normally is to use a special tool that is inserted underneath the film advance lever that 'tricks' the safety catch into the function of releasing the shutter without loading film (useful for checking). This tool is supplied with the camera as OEM.

From that last part it can be assumed the shutter speeds are accurate even if you are resorting to guessing with the "in-between" stops. I'm wondering if the dial at some stage in history has been forced beyond its limit (continued around where it usually does not). There is a pawl mechanism in the shutter speed dial that governs the click stops an "in between" setting will render an incorrect exposure, obviously (as published by Pentax). Rapid and forceful rotation of the dial is known to strip the pawl stop out very similar to the terribly onerous problem with Canon's EOS 5 mode dial where the click-stops are stripped out from the flimsy plastic pawl that selects the mode (the problem often recurs because of an inherent weakness in the dial's design).

batwister · Feb 20, 2013

I thought it was understood that holding the notched exposure counter dial at 1 or beyond - while closing the back - the shutter can be fired all day long. This is all over the net.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 20, 2013

batwister said:
I thought it was understood that holding the notched exposure counter dial at 1 or beyond - while closing the back - the shutter can be fired all day long. This is all over the net.

The right method also requires the key in tandem with this (if you can do it without the key I have suspicions the rewind mechanism is also compromised, but I really am speculating without seeing it); not a standard modus operandi, but often used with 220 film.

I have my own question mark about the 67 discovered only a few days ago during a moment of mischievous boredom: that I can put the mirror up with the mirror lock-up lever and then trigger the shutter by screwing the shutter release cable into the mirror reset button (instead of the shutter release button) on the front of the body (!) This very peculiar quirk might have something to do with the factory-optioned multiple exposure facility. I was damned irritated to have wasted a frame of Velvia...

batwister · Feb 20, 2013

Poisson Du Jour said:
I have my own question mark about the 67 discovered only a few days ago during a moment of mischievous boredom: that I can put the mirror up with the mirror lock-up lever and then trigger the shutter by screwing the shutter release cable into the mirror reset button (instead of the shutter release button) on the front of the body (!) This very peculiar quirk might have something to do with the factory-optioned multiple exposure facility. I was damned irritated to have wasted a frame of Velvia...

So a frame was exposed after pressing the mirror reset, or lost because once tripped, you had to advance the blank frame?

I know that once, after engaging MLU, the shutter actually opened and a frame was exposed. I never even pressed the shutter release and certainly not the reset button.

paul ron · Feb 20, 2013

Sounds like a very qurkiy camera.

Too many weird useless tics to deal with just to serve as a dark box to hold film with a shutter n lens up front. Does it also take pictures?

ummmmm...

.

Poisson Du Jour · Feb 21, 2013

paul ron said:
Sounds like a very qurkiy camera.

Too many weird useless tics to deal with just to serve as a dark box to hold film with a shutter n lens up front. Does it also take pictures?

ummmmm...

.

Is that an intelligent appraisal or are you just trying to impress me?
I don't see any knowledgeable input from you in this thread that might be of help to the OP's original message.

Well?

paul ron · Feb 23, 2013

Poisson Du Jour said:
Is that an intelligent appraisal or are you just trying to impress me?
I don't see any knowledgeable input from you in this thread that might be of help to the OP's original message.

Well?

And it's stupid remarks like this that just waste space...

Is there a question sir or are you just farting?

And btw; who are you I have to impress with anything?

suck a lens pal!

Suggestions for a faulty Pentax 67?

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