Substitute for Methyl Alcohol (Iodine bleach)

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M Carter

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I find dry iodine bleaching to be a powerful addition to my tools; but my recipe calls for methyl alcohol (part A is iodine + methyl, part B is Thio + water, Part C is methyl - equal parts of ABC for dry bleaching). I use it on prints and when making negative masks. Killer, handy stuff.

Thing is, methyl seems hard to find - I mail ordered a small bottle some time ago and I'm getting low. Will denatured work in this formula? I know jewelers prefer methyl as some chems dissolve more readily in it.

How about grain alcohol (everclear)? I understand methyl is also seriously toxic, so there's a factor as well.

I do use 90+% isopropyl to wipe the bleach from the print surface with no issues or discoloration.

Any chemists out there have some info?
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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Iodine crystals in methyl to dissolve; mixed with thiocarbamide in water basically - From one of my Tim Rudman books. But that's my primary use, sometimes my lith prints will get one (or more) black spots to deal with. Didn't know the straight-up iodine would work, I'll have to try that, seems much simpler. Don't know the purpose of the thio (well, when you add the thio, the solution turns clear, so you're not peering through a red dot I suppose?). I know thiosulfate also turns iodine clear, but I don't know how that affects the process.
 

awty

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I use methylated spirits (mostly ethanol), liquid iodine from the chemist (iodine and ethanol)and theo and a drop of flo. Its fairly weak, but gives me plenty of time bleach. I like it cause it doesnt stain like ferri can, dont like how runny it is, difficult to stay in the lines, probably no good for black spotting, but good for whitening. Havent used methyl.
 
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I'm really interested in learning more about this bleaching method and its applications. M Carter (and you others who use iodine), if you don't mind a bit of a digression, would you be so kind as to educate me a bit? I use ferricyanide alone and as a rehalogenating bleach when printing (prints are still wet) but have always etched away small black spots when spotting prints. If there's a better way, I need to learn about it.

TIA,

Doremus
 

thuggins

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Thing is, methyl seems hard to find - I mail ordered a small bottle some time ago and I'm getting low. Will denatured work in this formula? I know jewelers prefer methyl as some chems dissolve more readily in it.

How about grain alcohol (everclear)? I understand methyl is also seriously toxic, so there's a factor as well.

Methanol is the traditional antifreeze for your windshield washer. It used to be widely available unmixed from any auto parts store, but I have not bought the concentrate for many years. It will probably have a blue dye, so I don't know if that would be an issue. It is also available from camping stores as a stove fuel. When I was in Canada, methanol was all that was available (ethanol has more energy content, so it is actually the preferred fuel).

As for it being "seriously toxic", no. There seems to be an increasing irrationality regarding any "chemicals" (scare quotes intended). If you drink it you'll go blind, just like doing other thinks your mother warned you about. But there are many thing we use every day that folks know not to eat or drink. Prolonged exposure of full concentrate to the skin should be avoided, but that is also true of many things we use every day.
 
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I'm really interested in learning more about this bleaching method and its applications. M Carter (and you others who use iodine), if you don't mind a bit of a digression, would you be so kind as to educate me a bit? I use ferricyanide alone and as a rehalogenating bleach when printing (prints are still wet) but have always etched away small black spots when spotting prints. If there's a better way, I need to learn about it.

TIA,

Doremus

It is a lot easier to retouch a white spot than knife a black spot. Hence the bleach. I never got any good at knifing though... I use the iodine straight because it works fast and it takes the paper back to paper white. Easy enough to spot it later. The bleach works better on dry prints of course. At the very least you should wipe or squeegee the print so it isn't wet. Use a tiny brush too. Doesn't take much as you can imagine.

These days I tend to just spot the neg with a super fine Sakura pigment pen since the black spots on normal prints are of course dust on the neg at time of exposure.
 
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You should be able to get cans of methyl alcohol at any paint supply store, home depot, or similar place.
Some places they call it methyl hydrate
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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You should be able to get cans of methyl alcohol at any paint supply store, home depot, or similar place.
Some places they call it methyl hydrate

Googling, I find lots of it available in Canada, usually as a winter product (windshield de-icer I suppose?) Amazon has some, but it's all shipped from Canada. Amazon searches return mostly denatured alcohol. Wondering if there's some reason US stores stopped carrying it, lots of threads out there (Corvette owners particularly?() looking for where to buy it.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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I'm really interested in learning more about this bleaching method and its applications. M Carter (and you others who use iodine), if you don't mind a bit of a digression, would you be so kind as to educate me a bit? I use ferricyanide alone and as a rehalogenating bleach when printing (prints are still wet) but have always etched away small black spots when spotting prints. If there's a better way, I need to learn about it.

The cool thing about this (to me anyway), is you can use it on a dry print. With a very fine brush, you can do things like lighten specific blades of grass (I had a pinhole shot of an old railroad bridge with weedy foliage in the foreground making a cool framing pattern, and I was able to subtly "pop" that in a way that would have required specific enlarger masks). Since the print is dry, the bleach spreads very little.

You use a fine brush or a toothpick (or even a toothpick shaved down to a needle with a retoucher's loupe or headworn magnifier, this for really really fine work), and when the bleaching kicks in, you wipe it away with a q-tip or cotton ball with alcohol on it (I use 90+ isopropyl for the wiping). The emulsion dries in seconds and you can go again, so the possibilities to hit very fine detail are enormous.

For lith prints with black spots, I use it pretty strong with a toothpick shaved to just a splinter. The wood absorbs enough bleach to apply a very thin amount. For other uses, you thin with alcohol to get the desired strength. You can even do bleaching that sort of works with the grain pattern (esp. lith prints). Dilute bleach can be used for retouching, if there are things that will fade into the print to be less prominent, dilute bleach can let you really tweak things like that.

I have three half oz. cosmetic bottles, one with strong iodine (like a half gram of crystals dissolved in methanol) and one with 5% thiocarbamide. I mix equal part of thio, iodine, and alcohol in the third bottle as my working bleach, using an eyedropper - when the iodine and thio mix, the solution goes from red to clear. The alcohol will evaporate over time, so you have to watch that the solution doesn't get stronger over an hour or so. You have to re-fix really well - the spots can develop out in Selenium and other processes.

Also, I keep the bottle of iodine crystals and the small mixture bottles in a heavy-ish weight "tupperware" style container with the lid sealed - I've noticed the iodine off-gasses from the bottles and stains things nearby (mainly the sheet of paper with the formula I had tucked in with that stuff - it looks like a thousand-year-old browned document now).

I've found the bleach can eventually even bleach out selenium tones areas, but it's really something you want to do before any toning steps.
 
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Googling, I find lots of it available in Canada, usually as a winter product (windshield de-icer I suppose?) Amazon has some, but it's all shipped from Canada. Amazon searches return mostly denatured alcohol. Wondering if there's some reason US stores stopped carrying it, lots of threads out there (Corvette owners particularly?() looking for where to buy it.
Here are a few online suppliers:
https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php#methanol
https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=methanol
https://vpracingfuels.com/
http://www.hiperfuels.com/
 

Steve Goldstein

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You can also get 99% methanol and 99% isopropanol from McMaster-Carr in 1 quart, 1 gallon, and 5 gallon cans (they also list a 1 pint container for isopropanol). If you've never dealt with McMaster, they're great - pretty much everything is always in stock, there's no minimum order, and they don't gouge on shipping. And their web site is superb.
 
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The cool thing about this (to me anyway), is you can use it on a dry print. With a very fine brush, you can ...

M Carter,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write your detailed reply. I'll be looking into sourcing materials and trying this out soon. I've copied your post into a document for easy reference.

Best,

Doremus
 

darkroommike

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It may not be common down south but HEET is methanol/methyl alcohol. ISO HEET is isoproyl alcohol. Both products prevent gas line freeze by tying up any water in your gasoline. Check with an auto supply place.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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It may not be common down south but HEET is methanol/methyl alcohol. ISO HEET is isoproyl alcohol. Both products prevent gas line freeze by tying up any water in your gasoline. Check with an auto supply place.

Awesome, looks like they stock it down the street - thanks for the tip!
 

AgX

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Not being accustomed to this very application I do not see why basic Alcohols as Methanol and Ethanol should not be substitutable by each other.
A issue though I see with additives, so one should try to get the pure stuff anyway.


Putting the toxicity of Methanal in relation is right. But we should not overlook that already a few milliliters orally can be very harmful. Nothing to be worried about in this application. But these volumes can easily be reached in bad destillations or in malafide blends. when making liquor.
 
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pentaxuser

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. Prolonged exposure of full concentrate to the skin should be avoided, but that is also true of many things we use every day.
The sun for a start and yet people in the U.K. pay travel companies a fortune for just such ends:D

pentaxuser
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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Not being accustomed to this very application I do not see why basic Alcohols as Methanol and Ethanol should not be substitutable by each other.
A issue though I see with additives, so one should try to get the pure stuff anyway.

That was my initial question; methanol seems much harder to get than denatured, 90+% iso, or "everclear" (in my area, anyway). I don't know why the initial formula (from one of Tim Rudman's printing books) calls for methanol, but I don't know much basic chemistry or if there's a reason why it would be a better choice for an iodine mixture.
 

Gerald C Koch

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You can use ethyl or isopropyl alcohols. Iodine crystals also dissolve in potassium iodide solutions.
 
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