Substitute for Hydroquinone

zanxion72 · Nov 21, 2020

Now that hydroquinone has been banned in the EU, is it possible to substitute it with something else in the formula of D76? I have read about the eco friendly version of D76 who omits hydroquinone in favor of double the amount of Metol. Does that work equally well like the good old D76 formula?

BradS · Nov 21, 2020

Hydroquinone banned? Why? It is an important industrial chemical.
Anyway, try d23. It is kinda like d76 without hydroquinone.

Anon Ymous · Nov 21, 2020

Wow there, have you tried Manis chemicals near Omonoia square? He sells hydroquinone, 60€/kg, which is a perfectly reasonable price. If you insist on skipping hydroquinone altogether, then you can first try the D76H unofficial variant, which has more metol, but no hydroquinone. For an even better developer, you can try home-brewing Xtol from the patent formula, or something similar, like Mytol.

bluechromis · Nov 21, 2020

As mentioned,If one mixes their own developer there is a version of D-76 developed by Grant Haist of Kodak called D-76H that has superior keeping properties and completely omits hydroquinone. Reportedly it works the same as regular D-76.

Metol. 2.5 g
Sodium Sulphite 100 g
Borax decahydrate. 2

Water to make 1 L

bluechromis · Nov 21, 2020

I would also recommend Xtol as an alternative. There are a number of Xtol clones as well Eco-pro, Fomadon Excel. An advantage of the Fomadon Excel is that it can be purchased in packets to make up only 1 L of stock which mitigates storage issues. There are also excellent home mixed clones including Mytol and Instant Mytol. Moersch has an eco developer.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/instant-mytol.179/

Ian Grant · Nov 21, 2020

I think certain Hydroquinone based products are banned in the EU, as well as other parts of the world, these are skin lightening products. I've enough to last a lifetime, a few kilos

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Nov 21, 2020

Hydroquinone hasn't been banned for film developers.

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Hydroquinone hasn't been banned for film developers.

I am glad you said this Tom otherwise I was anticipating a wailing and nashing of teeth in Mobberley

pentaxuser

Anon Ymous · Nov 21, 2020

Overall, hydroquinone hasn't been banned, but buying it as an individual may have gotten harder, if not prohibited.

Alan Johnson · Nov 21, 2020

zanxion72 said:
Now that hydroquinone has been banned in the EU,

I am not sure that is true, as of Nov 2020 the regulators merely note the use of it in photographic chemicals:
https://echa.europa.eu/substance-information/-/substanceinfo/100.004.199

alanrockwood · Nov 21, 2020

Maybe a dumb idea, but what about using ascorbate? It might not be an exact substitute, but it would probably work reasonably well, maybe better in fact.

Donald Qualls · Nov 21, 2020

alanrockwood said:
Maybe a dumb idea, but what about using ascorbate? It might not be an exact substitute, but it would probably work reasonably well, maybe better in fact.

One big problem with ascorbate in developers is "sudden death syndrome" -- something call Fenton's reaction leads to trace amounts of iron or copper (in the water, or in the chemicals) oxidizing the ascorbate. This happens quite suddenly; the developer will be okay for some period, and then (seemingly overnight) the superadditive effects will be lost and the developer will "die" -- it won't produce zero density, but at the times normally specified for the two-agent developer, the single developing agent will produce grossly underdeveloped negatives. This Fenton reaction was (I've read) responsible for "sudden Xtol death" 15-20 years ago; Kodak fixed it by adding iron and copper sequestrants to the commercial formula, but this reaction is the reason people are now commonly warned off Mytol as a stock solution used like Xtol stock, in favor of "Instant Mytol" -- mixed from dry chemicals to working strength immediately before use, then discarded after a single use.

Alan Johnson · Nov 21, 2020

Yes, Xtol contains DTPA as the best sequestrant and chelating agent [preventing iron and copper catalyzed decomposition of ascorbate].
But DTPA cannot normally be purchased so hobbyists cannot make an ascorbate developer as stable as Xtol.

Anon Ymous · Nov 21, 2020

Alan Johnson said:
Yes, Xtol contains DTPA as the best sequestrant and chelating agent [preventing iron and copper catalyzed decomposition of ascorbate].
But DTPA cannot normally be purchased so hobbyists cannot make an ascorbate developer as stable as Xtol.

I have sourced some DTPA-5Na solution and made an almost exact Xtol patent formula batch of developer (phenidone instead of dimezone-s). I mixed it with tap water and there are some iron pipes in the building. I have reused this 500ml batch several times, increasing development time as the Xtol datasheet suggests. It worked fine last time I used it after 9 months.

Before sourcing DTPA-5Na, I used sodium hexametaphosphate instead, but had to adjust pH to get to 8,2 with some sodium hydroxide. I used deionised water for these batches, but hadn't experienced any failures after six months.

I hadn't experienced any failures back when I used the commercial product even after exceeding the expected solution life, had to toss it because I moved house. I suppose I'm lucky, but I suspect Xtol failures are overreported in fora etc.

Donald Qualls · Nov 21, 2020

The problems with Fenton reaction failure in Mytol are that the iron or copper may not come from your water, but rather from impurities in your sulfite or borax -- which may differ from batch to batch -- and that there is no warning these reactions are occurring (most other developing agents will change color when they oxidize, but the Fenton reaction doesn't result in a color change). I love my Xtol -- but if I were using Mytol self-replenished (which, I've read, does work) I'd certainly be running a clip test before processing for Every. Single. Tank.

My current Xtol stock was mixed in late June of this year -- well within the advertised shelf life of the stock solution I'm using to replenish the working solution -- and I'm confident in the longevity of the stuff even though the bag had a 2002 expiration date. I mixed with deionized water, and if it were going to fail due to impurities in the chemicals, it would have done so before now.

zanxion72 · Nov 22, 2020

My bad! After realizing that my stock of Metol and Hydroquinone went down to almost nothing, trying to find some to buy I forgot my local store of Chemicals (@Anon Ymous Manis at Omonia sq.) and panicking made me read a few things wrong such as the ban of use of hydroquinone in beauty products. Sorry, mea culpa!

For now I cannot buy any, due to the COVID-19 lockdown. But, I have the chemical agents and a source of Paracetamol (my local drugstore) to mix some paRodinal. That would keep me busy until I will get some Metol and Hydroquinone.

@Anon Ymous Is there anyone in Greece selling PDTA-5Na? I would love trying mixing my own Xtol.

AgX · Nov 22, 2020

zanxion72 said:
Now that hydroquinone has been banned in the EU,...

Hydroquinone as such is not banned in the EU, but tolerated.

The risk evaluation report is free to read, but hard to understand for those ignorant of the procedure.

Anon Ymous · Nov 22, 2020

@zanxion72 I'd try calling Manis Chemicals, they seem to be accepting orders, so maybe you can still buy from them (they also stock metol). If they don't accept orders, you can also buy from here. I've bought some reagents in the past from them, never had any trouble. I don't know anyone selling DTPA-5Na in Greece, I bought mine from Italy, combined with other things from them. That's a 50%w/v solution.

EDIT: DTPA-5Na isn't absolutely necessary, you can ignore it, but longevity may suffer.

bnxvs · Nov 23, 2020

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1546
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/d-76ad-ascorbic-acid-version-of-buffered-d-76.19322/

Martin Rickards · Nov 23, 2020

I used to sell HQ in tonne lots at about 2€ kg, but as stated it was far more useful as an intermediate for things like p-benzoquinone or BHA That was a long time ago.

grain elevator · Nov 23, 2020

There is no replacement to make lith developer AFAIK, so if it was actually banned, I'd be sad. I'll need to find a cheaper source as I've been going through a good amount lately. I hope being in a larger city, my effluent developer is diluted enough to cause no damage.

mpirie · Nov 23, 2020

I tried to buy two 50g bottles of Hydroquinone yesterday on the auction site and was told that i could not place this order because it has been misused by the cosmetics industry.

I told the seller and they advised that they leave their ad on the site to let people know it's still available.

When I asked if i could place the same order directly....i was told they could only sell me one 50g bottle!

What is the world coming to?

Mike

zanxion72 · Nov 23, 2020

Anon Ymous said:
@zanxion72 I'd try calling Manis Chemicals, they seem to be accepting orders, so maybe you can still buy from them (they also stock metol). If they don't accept orders, you can also buy from here. I've bought some reagents in the past from them, never had any trouble. I don't know anyone selling DTPA-5Na in Greece, I bought mine from Italy, combined with other things from them. That's a 50%w/v solution.

EDIT: DTPA-5Na isn't absolutely necessary, you can ignore it, but longevity may suffer.

Thank you for that link for Hydroquinone. I have also noticed they sell many other interesting stuff hard to find elsewhere. I will try Manis first and if no luck, I will stock hydroquinone from there.

Substitute for Hydroquinone

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