Stupid Sodium Chloride question.

photo8x10 · May 1, 2006

Hello Everyone,

I have a stupid little question about soium Chloride, I would like to prepare by myself my palladium solution and one chemical is Sodium Chloride, yesterday I found my old chemical book and I looked out this chemical. With my surprise it is the salt to cook.
When you mix palladium solution, which salt do you use?
A sodium Chloride that you could buy in a chemicals store or you do in your kitchen?

Excuse me for my stupid question, but I'm thinking to mix with my salt the palladium........

Best

Stefano

payral · May 1, 2006

Don't use kitchen salt because it contains much more things than sodium chloride, you have better time to use some pure one from a chemical or drug store.
It's really cheap but you don't want to spoil your Palladium solution, isn't it ?

philsweeney · May 1, 2006

I have use pickling salt - though it is not pure.

colrehogan · May 1, 2006

Stick to buying it from the chemical suppliers, it's purer. Off the top of my head, I don't recall what else the kitchen salt has in it after it is iodized, but you used to see table salt shown with the word iodized on the outside of the container. I'd have to dig in my chem books (which I'd have to dig out after I decluttered recently).

avandesande · May 1, 2006

They put gorp (aluminum and ferrous salts) in there for flow control and clumping. Don't skimp for palladium.

clay · May 1, 2006

I use Morton's Kosher Salt. It works fine.

photomc · May 1, 2006

clay said:
I use Morton's Kosher Salt. It works fine.

So glad you posted this Clay, seems like in the last few months Jorge had posted he used pickling salt .... maybe even Mortons, and I figure his stuff looked good enough.

Michael Mutmansky · May 1, 2006

Kosher salt does not have the iodine added, but it still may have some anit-caking compunds. Regardless, it's what I use, and have never had any trouble with it. That is, when I'm using sodium chloride, which isn't too often these days.

---Michael

David A. Goldfarb · May 1, 2006

I often use white Hawai'ian sea salt for albumen printing. Sea salts contain other minerals that give them their distinctive flavors, and they can affect the tone in subtle ways. On the one hand, they are not an absolutely consistent material like reagent grade NaCl, but non-uniformity can be interesting.

photomc · May 1, 2006

Michael Mutmansky said:
Kosher salt does not have the iodine added, but it still may have some anit-caking compunds. Regardless, it's what I use, and have never had any trouble with it. That is, when I'm using sodium chloride, which isn't too often these days.

---Michael

OK Michael, I'll bite...what are you using in place of NaCl? Reason I ask is just mixed a batch of PdCl using LiCl, so just curious what others are using.

nworth · May 2, 2006

Many brands of table salt contain a little bit (like .001 percent) of ferricyanide. Even this small amount will kill the speed of most alternative processes.

Michael Mutmansky · May 2, 2006

Mike,

People use various salts (at least the ones that work well) for PT/PD printing. I think that it comes down to personal preference based on the color results mostly. I like ammonium chloride.

---Michael

photomc · May 2, 2006

Michael Mutmansky said:
Mike,

People use various salts (at least the ones that work well) for PT/PD printing. I think that it comes down to personal preference based on the color results mostly. I like ammonium chloride.

---Michael

Michael, Thanks for the info - so from what I have learned (from the many good folks here) sodium chloride, ammonium chloride, lithium chloride and cesium chloride are used (is there a reference as to what the color shift is with each?). Has anyone ever tried copper chloride and if so what were the results like? Are there other salts that are less common...

Sorry to OP, do not mean to hijack the thread.

Michael Mutmansky · May 2, 2006

Mike,

I presume every viable salt has been tried as some time in the past.

There are double salts that may be viable as well, though, so it could get complicated to test everything.

I think at least some of the final appearence is related to working methods and developer chosen, along with the paper, so there are many variables to lock down to do a comparison test.

I compared sodium, lithium and ammonium at one time and noted the differences in the results. Each has it's merits for specific things, but I generally liked the look of the ammonium version for general work.

---Michael

Gerald Koch · May 2, 2006

Pickling salt is usually free of additives since it's desirable for brines to be clear and colorless. I have used Morton pickling salt in making a Microdol substitute and have not noticed any adverse effect. However, it's good to make your own tests.

photo8x10 · May 2, 2006

Thank you very much,
I've read your posts with attention, so I'll find a pure salt do to my palladium solution.

Best

Stefano

donbga · May 2, 2006

Michael Mutmansky said:
Mike,

I presume every viable salt has been tried as some time in the past.

There are double salts that may be viable as well, though, so it could get complicated to test everything.

I think at least some of the final appearence is related to working methods and developer chosen, along with the paper, so there are many variables to lock down to do a comparison test.

I compared sodium, lithium and ammonium at one time and noted the differences in the results. Each has it's merits for specific things, but I generally liked the look of the ammonium version for general work.

---Michael

How do you determine the correct amount of ammonium chloride to use?

Thanks,

sanking · May 2, 2006

Michael,

Why do you prefer ammonium chlroide?

And would you post a mixing formula of ammonium chloride + palladium, or is it same as with sodium chloride?

Sandy

Michael Mutmansky said:
Mike,

I presume every viable salt has been tried as some time in the past.

There are double salts that may be viable as well, though, so it could get complicated to test everything.

I think at least some of the final appearence is related to working methods and developer chosen, along with the paper, so there are many variables to lock down to do a comparison test.

I compared sodium, lithium and ammonium at one time and noted the differences in the results. Each has it's merits for specific things, but I generally liked the look of the ammonium version for general work.

---Michael

Michael Mutmansky · May 2, 2006

I've been using the formula for ammonium palladate in the Ware information on the Ware POP process. It's a little more concentrated than the normal formula, but my tests years ago appeared to indicate that the traditional formulas for FO and PD had a bit of an excess of FO anyway, so I figured it would work fully without waste.

His formula calls for 1.8 g NH4Cl and 3g PdCl in H2O to make 25ml.

The molecular weight of Nh4Cl is slightly less than NaCl, but ammonium chloride is hygroscopic, so while you could use essentially the same formula as the traditional sodium chloride, you really should be thinking about a bit more to adjust for the captured water.

Anyway, I like the color better, and it seems to solarize less, and it may have some hygroscopic properties that make it partially print out, which could be used to adjust image tone and contrast as well. I'm not doing that, but I believe an advanced user could use that to good effect.

---Michael

clay · May 2, 2006

I'm using the ammonium version as well. I may switch to this totally as soon as I work through my stash of lithium palladium salt. Agree with all of Michael's observations about its qualities.

photomc · May 2, 2006

You guys....leave me dumbfounded. I know you have been doing this for a while, but man!!! Does the NH4Cl show more, less or about the same hygroscopic qualities as LiCl? Which surprised me a bit when mixing the LiPd up, seem to just suck the water out of the air. This really is a never ending learning process isn't it.

Michael Mutmansky · May 3, 2006

Mike,

Since you asked... I did a simple comparison test today, and lithium is much more hygroscopic than ammonium. Not scientific, mind you, but a small pile of each produces a wet spot with the lithium in fairly quick order (in about 50-60% RH), but the ammonium seems to be fairly dry and unclumped still.

In fact, I wonder is the ammonium is hygroscopic any more than the normal sodium is. They may be about the same.

---Michael

photomc · May 4, 2006

Michael,

Thanks, after working with the LiCl, was afraid to ask about the NH4Cl...like you said...very hgroscopic. Appreciate the information.

Mike

Michael Mutmansky said:
Mike,

Since you asked... I did a simple comparison test today, and lithium is much more hygroscopic than ammonium. Not scientific, mind you, but a small pile of each produces a wet spot with the lithium in fairly quick order (in about 50-60% RH), but the ammonium seems to be fairly dry and unclumped still.

In fact, I wonder is the ammonium is hygroscopic any more than the normal sodium is. They may be about the same.

---Michael

EricNeilsen · May 5, 2006

photomc said:
You guys....leave me dumbfounded. I know you have been doing this for a while, but man!!! Does the NH4Cl show more, less or about the same hygroscopic qualities as LiCl? Which surprised me a bit when mixing the LiPd up, seem to just suck the water out of the air. This really is a never ending learning process isn't it.

Ammonium Chloride is FAR less hydroscopic than Lithium. I have seen the LiCl basucally turn into a liquid. I have not seen anything of the kind with ammonium chloride.

Eric

EricNeilsen · May 5, 2006

sanking said:
Michael,

Why do you prefer ammonium chlroide?

And would you post a mixing formula of ammonium chloride + palladium, or is it same as with sodium chloride?

Sandy

Sandy, The PdCl2 should be mixed at a 1 mole to 2 mole ratio with the Sodium, Ammonium, Lithium chlorides. ( as well as cesium, although rarely used) . The Pd mix is also use with the FO or AFO at a 2 to 1 mix. Although it needs to be 1.4M to .7M for the PD mix; at least that is the information in Ware paper that dates back to 1986. And While the paper is based on the AFO approach to printing, it rang bells the entire time I read it while I used the more traditional FO formula.

I use 5g PdCl2 with 3.5 NaCl, 5g PdCl2 with 3.1 NH4Cl, and 5g PdCl2 with 2.6g LiCl. All sligtly higher than formula suggest to make sure there is adequate ions running around to mix properly

Stupid Sodium Chloride question.

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