Stupid is as stupid does...

joeyk49 · Jun 10, 2005

Ok. Stupid amateur photography mistake #653...

Yesterday, I was out playing with my son's Canon TL. I had loaded it yesterday with HP5. So far, so good. Used my handheld meter and fired off a few shots...no problem.

Grabed the same camera and my Minolta, today and ran to take a few shots of a local farm. (I should have known better because it was really, REALLY overcast) Set my meter back to 50, because I never use anything but PanF in his Canon. HP5 always goes in the Minolta..."Are you starting to see the picture?"

Yep. Metered about 12 frames worth at iso 50 in stead of 400.

Now what? About four or five frames were exposed normally and the balance were, shall be say slightly overexposed??? Now those four or five were exposed in fairly bright circumstances. So, there may be an overage issue with them as well.

The questions are:

Do I expose the rest of the film at 50? And, if so, can I save it in development (pulling, I think)

Or, do I expose the rest at 400 and develop normally and hope for the best on the middle frames?

I am planning to develop in Rodinal.

Any help/suggestions would be most welcome...

(Maybe this should have gon in the "DOH!" thread...)

noseoil · Jun 10, 2005

Just shoot the rest at 50 and develop. I'll bet they're dense, but I would also bet that they print fine. Normal development and see what happens. tim

Bob F. · Jun 10, 2005

Ilford's datasheet for HP5, exposing at an EI of 50, suggests Perceptol stock @ 20C for 9 minutes - however, good luck finding Perceptol for the next few months until they start making it again! Suggested time is 11mins for EI 200-400, so perhaps pulling your Rodinal dev time by about 15% will help. They don't mention any other developer. If you assume the EI of HP5+ is probably closer to 200 you are only two stops out...

Good luck, Bob.

peterlawusa · Jun 10, 2005

joeyk49 said:
Ok. Stupid amateur photography mistake #653...

Yesterday, I was out playing with my son's Canon TL. I had loaded it yesterday with HP5. So far, so good. Used my handheld meter and fired off a few shots...no problem.

Grabed the same camera and my Minolta, today and ran to take a few shots of a local farm. (I should have known better because it was really, REALLY overcast) Set my meter back to 50, because I never use anything but PanF in his Canon. HP5 always goes in the Minolta..."Are you starting to see the picture?"

Yep. Metered about 12 frames worth at iso 50 in stead of 400.

Now what? About four or five frames were exposed normally and the balance were, shall be say slightly overexposed??? Now those four or five were exposed in fairly bright circumstances. So, there may be an overage issue with them as well.

The questions are:

Do I expose the rest of the film at 50? And, if so, can I save it in development (pulling, I think)

Or, do I expose the rest at 400 and develop normally and hope for the best on the middle frames?

I am planning to develop in Rodinal.

Any help/suggestions would be most welcome...

(Maybe this should have gon in the "DOH!" thread...)

No shoot the rest at the 50 ASA the do the opposite of pushing, calculate the time reduction. the differential should be on the the web, then correct for 3 stops under exposed. 50 100 200 400 right

Tom Stanworth · Jun 10, 2005

if you use a speed reducing dev like perceptol stock and then pull...but youll get VERY flat negs. Print on condenser if poss at hard grade for seperation. If no joy on perceptol stock, anyone know af any speed reducers available easily?

Donald Miller · Jun 10, 2005

quote: "then correct for 3 stops under exposed. 50 100 200 400 right"

Nope would be three stops over exposed.

joeyk49 · Jun 10, 2005

Thanks guys!

I've never pushed or pulled film development before, so this may turn out to be somewhat fun.

As soon as I shoot the remaining frames, we'll see where it goes.

Am I wrong? Doesn't Rodinal kick up sharpness a bit more than other developers; thereby keeping them from going as flat as they might???

Surly · Jun 10, 2005

joeyk49 said:
Thanks guys!

I've never pushed or pulled film development before, so this may turn out to be somewhat fun.

As soon as I shoot the remaining frames, we'll see where it goes.

Am I wrong? Doesn't Rodinal kick up sharpness a bit more than other developers; thereby keeping them from going as flat as they might???

Done confuse edge acuteness with contrast. Keeping them from going flat would be contrast.

geraldatwork · Jun 10, 2005

Just open the camera in a darkroom and take out the 12 frames and put it on a spool and develope it the best way to salvage what you have from what has been suggested. The film is on the take up spool. Pull a little extra film out of the cannister so you don't ruin what you have and have enough to load the balance of the film. Just press the release button and pull the film off the spool and immediately put it into a tank. You can develope it at your leisure. Obviously all this has to be in the dark. I just did this the other day when I wanted to test a few shots on a partial roll with a different developer I had not used before. Did this make any sense?

geraldatwork · Jun 10, 2005

I forgot to add that you cut the film with a scissor while it is in the camera.

Donald Miller · Jun 10, 2005

joeyk49 said:
Thanks guys!

I've never pushed or pulled film development before, so this may turn out to be somewhat fun.

As soon as I shoot the remaining frames, we'll see where it goes.

Am I wrong? Doesn't Rodinal kick up sharpness a bit more than other developers; thereby keeping them from going as flat as they might???

Sharpness is a far different thing then contrast. Your problem is that you want to control contrast to some degree either by using a compensating developer or some other means of compensating the development of the highlight densities.

By overexposing the film by three stops you moved the shadow detail well up onto the straight line section of the characteristic curve. By giving normal development, you stand the chance of moving the highlight densities onto the shoulder of the characteristic curve. So the probable outcome is that you will compress the highlight densities to the point that they may become blocked. So it is possible that you will have a negative that is dense and also exhibits blocked highlight detail.

The thing that I would hope for would be to arrive at a negative that exhibited highlight density tonal separation and to compensate for the low contrast negative that this will entail by printing at a higher contrast grade/filtration.

BradS · Jun 10, 2005

Well, Rodinal would be my last choice for HP-5 that was three stops over exposed. I'd suggest something that needs extra exposure in the first place like d-23, d-25 or, microdol-x. Seems like HP-5 will handle three stops of over exposure - especially if you were shooting on a overcast day.

noseoil · Jun 10, 2005

My reply about "normal" development was based on the "very overcast" conditions under which the roll was shot during asa 50 exposures. If the SBR was truly flat, I would think the results might be nice. Donald does raise a valid point. High probability that the highlights may pile up, but why worry? Live and learn.

Similar thread early this morning about Efke 25. It was exposed at asa 100, not my first choice for exposure. In these situations, chalk it up to experience and try to avoid it in the future. tim

bobfowler · Jun 10, 2005

joeyk49 said:
Thanks guys!

I've never pushed or pulled film development before, so this may turn out to be somewhat fun.

As soon as I shoot the remaining frames, we'll see where it goes.

Am I wrong? Doesn't Rodinal kick up sharpness a bit more than other developers; thereby keeping them from going as flat as they might???

Are you going to be at the NY/NJ get together next weekend? If so, hold off developing that film - I can fatten you up with a quart package of Perceptol.

harveyje · Jun 10, 2005

geraldatwork said:
Just open the camera in a darkroom and take out the 12 frames and put it on a spool and develope it the best way to salvage what you have from what has been suggested. The film is on the take up spool. Pull a little extra film out of the cannister so you don't ruin what you have and have enough to load the balance of the film. Just press the release button and pull the film off the spool and immediately put it into a tank. You can develope it at your leisure. Obviously all this has to be in the dark. I just did this the other day when I wanted to test a few shots on a partial roll with a different developer I had not used before. Did this make any sense?

Just a note of historical interest - The old Exactas had a built-in knife to cut the film off in the camera in order to process a part of the roll.

geraldatwork · Jun 10, 2005

harveyje said:
Just a note of historical interest - The old Exactas had a built-in knife to cut the film off in the camera in order to process a part of the roll.

Very interesting. I was very concerned with cutting the cloth shutter curtain in the dark. I wound up pulling about 4 or 5 pictures worth out of the cannister

joeyk49 · Jun 10, 2005

Wow! Great tutorial. (Promise not to send me a tuition bill?...)

Even if this particular roll winds up in the trash, I just learned a bunch of new little tidbits. Thanks all.

Ruining this roll won't be a disaster, because both subjects (a local farm and a rusted out 1920something Chrysler) will still be there, for the time being. (But with the way farmland is being chewed up by housing developers, I'd better not wait too long.) But I wanted to give it (saving the roll) the good old college try.

My next, immediate, self assignment on my long journey towards photographic nirvana, will be to properly learn the differences between contrast and sharpness, and how they are effected by emulsion and the processes of exposure and development...I think I've discovered the basis of my confusion, but a couple hours or info absorption is definitely in order.

I'm finding that taking notes on exposure and developement isn't paying off, right now, with demonstrably better photos. But it is helping me quickly identify what I did wrong on which particular frame; which I figure is half the battle.

noseoil · Jun 11, 2005

Sharpness & Contrast

Joe, keep taking notes! It won't help immediately, but sooner or later (hopefully sooner for you) the trends will be there to see. Hard to keep evaluating, but just do it. Expose, develop, print, evaluate with notes, a beer or whatever and keep shooting.

Sharpness: best is a good tripod, no wind or fast shutter and fast film.

Contrast: Too much and you have burnt out highlights and or dead shadows. Too little and whites are gray, blacks are dark gray and an overall "muddy" look results.

1: Sharp slow shot with nearly too much contrast. Efke 25 (35mm), PMK developer, tripod and slow shutter, harsh lighting from the sun and full development.
2: Slower shutter, less light & contrast, shallow depth of field due to slower shutter and larger aperture. Efke 25 (120) and PMK.

Keep shooting, tim

fhovie · Jun 11, 2005

I would cut off what you shot and develop it in split d-23. It is a development process similar to that which was used in old movie camera days where exposure was all over the place and they wanted the movie to be the same brightness over all. With split d-23, the film goes in bath A for 3 minutes and bath b for 3 minutes. - Bath A chemicals are activated by bath b chemicals. When the bath A chemicals (that soaked into the emulsion while the film was in bath a) are exhaused in the bath b, they stop devloping and the areas where there is very little exposure keep on developing the whole time. It is a technique that evolved for exactly what you did and I have used it many times when working with old cameras and had to guess at exposures.

Stupid is as stupid does...

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