Stupid Hasselblad Question

logan2z · Jul 22, 2023

OK, I feel like an idiot but I'm going to ask this anyway:

I haven't used my 500 C/M for a couple of months. There is an A12 back attached to the body and I'm pretty sure I had previously shot a few frames on it. I went to look at the frame counter today to see how many shots I still had left on the roll and it was blank i.e. no frame count is showing in the frame counter window. However, the film consumption indicator is all red., which would lead me to believe that the entire roll has been shot. I was almost positive that I had not used up the entire roll since, if I had, I would have rewound the film and removed it. I decided to try and turn the film crank and it turned a few revolutions and stopped with the frame counter window now showing '1'. This is strange because I would never attach a back without winding the film on. The film consumption indicator is still red after having 'wound on'. Presumably, there is actually a roll of film in the camera since it seemed to wind on to frame '1' (I assume it wouldn't do that without film in the camera) and I have a top from an FP4+ box in the film reminder.

At this point I'm completely confused about the state of the roll in the camera. Have all 12 frames been shot? If so, why did winding the film advance crank set the film counter to 1? Or, did I put a roll of film in the camera and forget to wind it on and now it's at the first frame? If so, why is the film consumption indicator red? Or is the camera in some other state? Not sure how to proceed at this point without opening the back and potentially ruining the roll of film that's inside.

BrianShaw · Jul 22, 2023

Save yourself the heartache… pull the cassette out and if there’s film in it… scrap it. Start over with new roll and be certain of your status.

AnselMortensen · Jul 22, 2023

+1.
If you unload it in the dark, you could save whatever images might be on the film...

RalphLambrecht · Jul 22, 2023

logan2z said:
OK, I feel like an idiot but I'm going to ask this anyway:

I haven't used my 500 C/M for a couple of months. There is an A12 back attached to the body and I'm pretty sure I had previously shot a few frames on it. I went to look at the frame counter today to see how many shots I still had left on the roll and it was blank i.e. no frame count is showing in the frame counter window. However, the film consumption indicator is all red., which would lead me to believe that the entire roll has been shot. I was almost positive that I had not used up the entire roll since, if I had, I would have rewound the film and removed it. I decided to try and turn the film crank and it turned a few revolutions and stopped with the frame counter window now showing '1'. This is strange because I would never attach a back without winding the film on. The film consumption indicator is still red after having 'wound on'. Presumably, there is actually a roll of film in the camera since it seemed to wind on to frame '1' (I assume it wouldn't do that without film in the camera) and I have a top from an FP4+ box in the film reminder.

At this point I'm completely confused about the state of the roll in the camera. Have all 12 frames been shot? If so, why did winding the film advance crank set the film counter to 1? Or, did I put a roll of film in the camera and forget to wind it on and now it's at the first frame? If so, why is the film consumption indicator red? Or is the camera in some other state? Not sure how to proceed at this point without opening the back and potentially ruining the roll of film that's inside.

I leave this to Sirius.

reddesert · Jul 23, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Save yourself the heartache… pull the cassette out and if there’s film in it… scrap it. Start over with new roll and be certain of your status.

Use a changing bag! Might as well try to save the images on the film if there are any.

If it turns out that the film is partly wound you can then use or wind off the rest.

Philippe-Georges · Jul 23, 2023

Or, in the dark, pull out the protective slide and feel if there is film or paper to feel, if these aren't then you will feel a faint waffle structure or a very slight round 'deepness' in the middle. But indeed, by this you wouldn't know if the film transport is working...

But, if you would like to test if the film is transporting, there is a little trick to do so:
in the dark, and the slide pulled oud, stick a little piece of thin tape on the film (Scotch Magic is ideal), take a picture and wind normally, and then, in the dark, feel if that piece has moved away. By doing this, you will only lose one or two frames.

Anyhow, don't pull the film holder out of the shell as the counter wil jump back to zero (if that one is working properly).

Anyway, it always pays off to have an A12, and by extension the whole camera, CLA'd as it gives a sense of security, but, you are right, good (Hasselblad-) CLA's are rather costly...

Terje Lindal · Jul 23, 2023

To me it sounds like you have loaded the film, but not winded to frame 1. As far as I can understand everything you describe matches that scenario.
I also always automatically wind to first frame when loading……… except once last week, and - a few other times, once a year or so

itsdoable · Jul 23, 2023

An all red film consumption indicator usually means no film left in the fresh film chamber. So if there is film in the back, it’s pretty much spooled into the take-up chamber.

Sirius Glass · Jul 23, 2023

NOT A STUPID QUESTION

I have had this happen to me. There is a pin in the film back that got stuck [bent, worn, grease, … ] and did not pop out when you removed the back and the previous roll. While there is film in the back there is nothing one can do, so finish the roll, then when the film is removed see if the counter goes back to zero. Some film backs do not have zero on the counter ring which makes this more annoying. If the counter does not go back to zero, it is time to take it to the repair person. Often a little work by the repair person will correct the problem and a CLA may not be needed. While the repair person has the back in their hands, it is a good idea to have them check the light seal and the spacing between frames.

logan2z · Jul 23, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
NOT A STUPID QUESTION

I have had this happen to me. There is a pin in the film back that got stuck [bent, worn, grease, … ] and did not pop out when you removed the back and the previous roll. While there is film in the back there is nothing one can do, so finish the roll, then when the film is removed see if the counter goes back to zero. Some film backs do not have zero on the counter ring which makes this more annoying. If the counter does not go back to zero, it is time to take it to the repair person. Often a little work by the repair person will correct the problem and a CLA may not be needed. While the repair person has the back in their hands, it is a good idea to have them check the light seal and the spacing between frames.

I'm still a bit confused about this. When I loaded the film in the back and wound it on, I'm positive the film counter would have been at 1 or I wouldn't have proceeded to shoot the roll. So how could it now be blank if I haven't shot the whole roll and rewound the film? I guess I'll continue to shot the roll (assuming it's not already done) and see what happens.

Sirius Glass · Jul 23, 2023

logan2z said:
I'm still a bit confused about this. When I loaded the film in the back and wound it on, I'm positive the film counter would have been at 1 or I wouldn't have proceeded to shoot the roll. So how could it now be blank if I haven't shot the whole roll and rewound the film? I guess I'll continue to shot the roll (assuming it's not already done) and see what happens.

My experience is that if the counter is not properly locked on '1' for any reason, the counter will not increment. I have had this problem on one back that starts with '0' and one that starts with ' '.

Axelwik · Jul 23, 2023

Wind the small crank on right side of the film back until you hear the film backing paper snapping around (indicating that it's fully wound). If it does this immediately it's probably already wound onto the take up spool and you forgot that the roll was finished. If nothing is heard there's probably no film. Pull the insert to see what's in there, develop it etc., then load a fresh roll and stick the insert back in. If at that point it doesn't stop at frame 1 there's probably something wrong (take the film out in a darkroom or changing bag so it doesn't get wasted).

And by the way, you don't have to remove the film back to change film - only the insert. No need to insert the dark slide either.

logan2z · Jul 23, 2023

Axelwik said:
Wind the small crank on right side of the film back until you hear the film backing paper snapping around (indicating that it's fully wound). If it does this immediately it's probably already wound onto the take up spool and you forgot that the roll was finished. If nothing is heard there's probably no film. Pull the insert to see what's in there, develop it etc., then load a fresh roll and stick the insert back in. If at that point it doesn't stop at frame 1 there's probably something wrong (take the film out in a darkroom or changing bag so it doesn't get wasted).

And by the way, you don't have to remove the film back to change film - only the insert. No need to insert the dark slide either.

As I mentioned in my original post, I turned the small crank and it stopped with the frame counter set to 1. The crank can't be turned any further. It's as if the film was just wound on, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

mshchem · Jul 23, 2023

Time to remove the back insert. If you want to save the film wait until dark and retreat to a closet. Once you have the film out it should be straightforward what's going on. When you pull the insert the back should reset, then you should be able to make sure that the shutter is open, cocked, mirror down. Then re-install the insert and crank the small magazine crank until you get to "1" if it doesn't stop at 1 you probably have a "gunked up" back (highly technical terminology ) I have seen this on 40+ year old backs, I've fixed with a little lighter fluid

mshchem · Jul 23, 2023

logan2z said:
As I mentioned in my original post, I turned the small crank and it stopped with the frame counter set to 1. The crank can't be turned any further. It's as if the film was just wound on, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

Even without any film the back will stop at 1 when you turn the crank on the back.

Axelwik · Jul 23, 2023

mshchem said:
Even without any film the back will stop at 1 when you turn the crank on the back.

Yep, and once you fire the shutter at frame one the small crank can be used to wind the film all the way (assuming there's film).

Philippe-Georges · Jul 24, 2023

The red/white mark in that little kidney shaped window in the centre of the locking key indicating the consumption rate of the film, is driven by a 'feeler' between the two film rolls which is moving sidewards by the changing thickness of the film rolled over from the feeding side to the receiving side.

Out of the 5 film backs I have, there are two feelers of these that aren't working correctly, but this has no influence on the filmtransport as such.
Anyway, all films have their own thickness: backing paper (+ attaching tape) + emulsion.
That could be one of the reasons why, at the time, when I send in an A12 for repair, the Hasselblad Belgium Agency technician always asked what kind of film I was using in that back.
If there was no specification, he calibrated on the thickness of Tri-X.
I suppose that film thickness has an influence on the frame spacing too, but I don't know for sure.

AGFAPan was the thickest film then...

BTW, there are NO stupid questions about using a Hasselblad, just some lack of knowledge/experience as the handling of this camera is rather complex...

mshchem · Jul 24, 2023

Philippe-Georges said:
BTW, there are NO stupid questions about using a Hasselblad, just some lack of knowledge/experience as the handling of this camera is rather complex...

So true

Sirius Glass · Jul 24, 2023

Philippe-Georges said:
BTW, there are NO stupid questions about using a Hasselblad, just some lack of knowledge/experience as the handling of this camera is rather complex...

There is always something new that any of us can learn with any camera including the Hasselblads.

btaylor · Jul 24, 2023

Here's a question- this is for sure an A12 back and not a 12, correct? Because a 12 operates quite differently when it comes to the film counter. Just checking! I went through something like this between my A12 and 12 backs recently, had to fiddle a bit to refresh my failing memory.

Philippe-Georges · Jul 24, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
There is always something new that any of us can learn with any camera including the Hasselblads.

Photography is a continuous learning curve, but not only photography...

Philippe-Georges · Jul 24, 2023

btaylor said:
Here's a question- this is for sure an A12 back and not a 12, correct? Because a 12 operates quite differently when it comes to the film counter. Just checking! I went through something like this between my A12 and 12 backs recently, had to fiddle a bit to refresh my failing memory.

good question!

logan2z · Jul 25, 2023

btaylor said:
Here's a question- this is for sure an A12 back and not a 12, correct? Because a 12 operates quite differently when it comes to the film counter. Just checking! I went through something like this between my A12 and 12 backs recently, had to fiddle a bit to refresh my failing memory.

It's an A12, it looks just like this one:

itsdoable · Jul 25, 2023

logan2z said:
... Presumably, there is actually a roll of film in the camera since it seemed to wind on to frame '1' (I assume it wouldn't do that without film in the camera) and I have a top from an FP4+ box in the film reminder....

I forgot to point out that Hasselblad backs wind on without film, because they do not measure the film motion. As I mentioned before, the condition of the back was typical of an empty back with the insert re-inserted. And as long as the film consumption indicator is working, it indicates that it's empty, or the roll has been finished.

etn · Jul 26, 2023

AnselMortensen said:
+1.
If you unload it in the dark, you could save whatever images might be on the film...

Or just roll the film to the end and unload it normally...

Stupid Hasselblad Question

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