Stuck self timer/shutter on Ikonta 522/24

RLangham · May 15, 2020

So I just found what I take to be one of the rarer Zeiss 35mm folders, an Ikonta 522/24 with scale-focusing Novar-Anastigmat in Prontor-S (unusual for two reasons--first of all, Ikonta normally refers to upmarket medium format folders, not 35mm, and second, because the lens is not of Zeiss manufacture.) This is the original version of what would come to be the first Contina.

I knew I had to buy it for the price offered. Now, when I bought it, the shutter release did not depress... I had rightly guessed that this would unlock when I manipulated the (two!) sprocket wheels and the film advance knob. The shutter release went down, but nothing happened. It was then I noticed that the self-timer lever was charged, so I unlocked the shutter release again, pressed and held it, and pressed gently on the self-timer lever. It began to go without much pressure until it reached the end of its little slot. Then, nothing happened. The shutter did not release.

So clearly there's something up inside and it probably involved the self-timer. I will note that, turning the shutter speed dial, you can hear the slow-speed timer engaging and disengaging, so I think the shutter's been well-treated and I bet it'll work if it gets unjammed.

How would one go about opening this shutter to investigate without doing too much damage?

shutterfinger · May 15, 2020

Post a picture of the front of your camera's shutter. There are no good pictures on line. The shutter front should cover 85% of the frame. Everything unscrews and is removed from the front. Being the cocking and release controls are on the body they operate through the rear of the shutter. I have Prontor repair manuals on my google drive but they are for the large format/basic shutter not the camera specific.
The same manuals can be found at https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?category=2&secondary=23

Helge · May 20, 2020

Try a small amount of lighter fluid on a cotton swab. Touch it to the lever and slot. It will wig itself into the mechanism without swamping it and getting to places it shouldn't.
This works 90 percent of the time with stuck self-timers, without the risk of taking anything apart or the expense of paying someone els else to do it.

RLangham · May 20, 2020

Helge said:
Try a small amount of lighter fluid on a cotton swab. Touch it to the lever and slot. It will wig itself into the mechanism without swamping it and getting to places it shouldn't.
This works 90 percent of the time with stuck self-timers, without the risk of taking anything apart or the expense of paying someone els else to do it.

Thing is, the timer will run with a slight pushing. I can charge it and run it down again. It's the last little bit where it doesn't trigger or unlock the shutter, so I can't get it to fire at all.

shutterfinger · May 20, 2020

Have you tried pushing the shutter cocking lever to the fully released position once the self timer has been fully run down?

BrianShaw · May 20, 2020

The shutter needs an overhaul. If you keep pushing on it expect it to really jam up... or break.

RLangham · May 21, 2020

shutterfinger said:
Have you tried pushing the shutter cocking lever to the fully released position once the self timer has been fully run down?

THAT DID IT!

These have two-part cocking levers, where the actual cocking lever is hidden inside when uncocked and cocked with a second lever-- the first lever sticks out when cocked, as an indicator that can be seen in the finder. I pressed on the indicator and it went right away.

Unfortunately, the shutter stays open at speeds below 1/25th, so I think it does need some work, but I'll shoot it with the four fast speeds and maybe have it CLA'd later when I can afford to.

BrianShaw said:
The shutter needs an overhaul. If you keep pushing on it expect it to really jam up... or break.

Yes, I think that's apparent, what with "jammed up" and "broken" being the status quo ante. It literally wouldn't fire until I followed shutterfinger's advice, so I really didn't have anything to lose, did I?

Honestly you could go into every thread about a leaf shutter and say the same thing. They haven't made them en masse since probably the 80's and their heyday was from the 10's to the 50's, plus they were lubed with organic lubricant or very poor early synthetics, so pretty much every leaf shutter has either just had a CLA or needs one pretty badly.

The only exception are the Argus C series, which can run half-a-century between CLA's, and which I could train a child to CLA. The Pacemaker Speed Graphic is the equivalent for focal plane shutters.

shutterfinger · May 21, 2020

Leaf shutters are fairly bullet proof. Trying to force a cocking lever without depressing the release lever will likely do damage IF you manage to move the cocking lever. Pushing the cocking lever from cocked to full released with the release lever depressed is making the shutter operate in its normal design. A force of a few grams to a few pounds is safe but a very high force suggest an internal failure causing the jam and forcing it to the release position can cause more damage.
One may hurt their thumb before doing damage to the shutter.

BrianShaw · May 21, 2020

RLangham said:
Honestly you could go into every thread about a leaf shutter and say the same thing.

Sure could... but it’s especially worth noting when a self-timer is involved. They are, perhaps, the most fragile part of a shutter. Interestingly, many times a shutter in need of servicing can be coaxed into operation... but only if the self-timer is not used.

What you potentially had to lose was the potential ability to overhaul the shutter and get it back in operation versus potentially further breaking it and hoping that the needed repair parts can be found.

I bought a camera quite a while ago that exhibited the symptoms you described except when the former owner pushed the self-timer and the self-timing mechanism broke. I bought it for pennies-on-the-dollar as a parts camera. For me that repair was easy because I just happened to have a spare self-timer mechanism for that shutter.

I was lucky and won... I got a great camera for cheap; the former owner lost... if he had any serious intent of ever using the camera again. I suppose it depends on your intent.

RLangham · May 21, 2020

BrianShaw said:
Sure could... but it’s especially worth noting when a self-timer is involved. They are, perhaps, the most fragile part of a shutter. Interestingly, many times a shutter in need of servicing can be coaxed into operation... but only if the self-timer is not used.

What you potentially had to lose was the potential ability to overhaul the shutter and get it back in operation versus potentially further breaking it and hoping that the needed repair parts can be found.

I bought a camera quite a while ago that exhibited the symptoms you described except when the former owner pushed the self-timer and the self-timing mechanism broke. I bought it for pennies-on-the-dollar as a parts camera. For me that repair was easy because I just happened to have a spare self-timer mechanism for that shutter.

I was lucky and won... I got a great camera for cheap; the former owner lost... if he had any serious intent of ever using the camera again. I suppose it depends on your intent.

Ah, I'm sorry, I mistook your point for a much more obvious one. Point well taken.

Now, a related question: would you, Brian (and you, Shutterfinger) think that, if I have a Kodak/Nagel Recomar 33 on which the big Compur shutter runs perfectly, having apparently been CLA'd twenty years ago, but on which the self-timer lags and stops, it would be enough of a risk to the rest of the mechanism for me to try putting some lighter fluid on the self timer lever? Or should I leave such a sleeping dog lie?

Anyways, in the case of this little pocket camera here, I have a feeling that, since it runs most of the time on 1/50 and 1/25, that until I can get it CLA'd (if ever) matters might be improved for the other speeds if I use it frequently on the lowest working speed to exercise the low-speed gear train and potentially get it loosened up that way. I know this is only a palliative measure but that should improve it somewhat if the gears aren't damaged, no?

shutterfinger · May 21, 2020

1. I deplore the use of lighter fluid as a cleaner in anything. It leaves a light residue and will damage plastics and rubber.
2. CRC QD Contact Cleaner works well, leaves no residue, and does not harm plastics or rubber.
3. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well as a cleaner/degreaser and does not harm plastics or rubber.
4. Shutters that run slow have more drag on the springs that provide the operating power to run. Continuing to use shutters that are running slow causes addition wear beyond what would normally occur for the same use and it weakens the springs making it highly likely that the shutter will not achieve correct speeds across the full range once serviced.

Compur shutters in Kodak cameras were custom made for Kodak and have different internal parts that are not interchangeable with other Compur shutters.

Flushing a shutter without disassembly moves contaminates around the shutter and may adversely affect the operation of the shutter's other functions.

BrianShaw · May 21, 2020

I’m not as negative as my esteemed colleague about flood cleaning, lighter fluid, or naphtha. It actual sometimes works. But agree that its not as good as a full teardown cleaning and proper lubrication.

in your case, I would use the speeds that work, for as long as they work, until your ready to have it fully overhauled. Very important, though: never ever use the self-timer until that full overhaul.

Donald Qualls · May 21, 2020

shutterfinger said:
3. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well as a cleaner/degreaser and does not harm plastics or rubber.

On this one point I disagree. It got tossed in my last move, but I used to have a plastic measuring cup (polystyrene, I think, though I don't recall if it was marked with a recycling code) that crazed on contact with 90% isopropyl when I was dissolving phenidone to make a stock solution that would keep.

shutterfinger · May 21, 2020

There is always an exception to every rule. Is polystyrene used in cameras?

Donald Qualls · May 21, 2020

shutterfinger said:
Is polystyrene used in cameras?

Pretty sure it has been (because it does injection molding so well), but not in any that would have a Compur shutter, as far as I know.

Helge · May 22, 2020

shutterfinger said:
1. I deplore the use of lighter fluid as a cleaner in anything. It leaves a light residue and will damage plastics and rubber.
2. CRC QD Contact Cleaner works well, leaves no residue, and does not harm plastics or rubber.
3. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well as a cleaner/degreaser and does not harm plastics or rubber.
4. Shutters that run slow have more drag on the springs that provide the operating power to run. Continuing to use shutters that are running slow causes addition wear beyond what would normally occur for the same use and it weakens the springs making it highly likely that the shutter will not achieve correct speeds across the full range once serviced.

Compur shutters in Kodak cameras were custom made for Kodak and have different internal parts that are not interchangeable with other Compur shutters.

Flushing a shutter without disassembly moves contaminates around the shutter and may adversely affect the operation of the shutter's other functions.

Whatever little residue there “might” be, works as a very, very light lubricant rather than harming anything.
I’ve never been able to detect any residue, on any surface, from Zippo fluid. Even after careful inspection.
Otherwise just use pure naphtha if you are worried.
Same with plastics.
Tested naphtha on various types of plastic for extended periods. Not as much as a mark.
Not a lot of plastic used in classic cameras anyway.
Just keep the naphtha off the parts if there is some plastic used.

There is also problems with other cleaners.
Isopropyl alcohol can affect glues and dyes and printed marks.

It’s also just as important to note that no one is talking about flooding here.
That might be an option if you have the shutter open and separate.
Not on the camera.

Sometimes it feels like even fumes are enough to dissolve the clod of lubricant and dust.
It’s very careful small applications, where you let a very small amount wick into part of the mechanism.

shutterfinger · May 22, 2020

Helge said:
Isopropyl alcohol can affect glues and dyes and printed marks.

I've never encountered this with Isopropyl but have with Denatured Alcohol.

Helge · May 22, 2020

shutterfinger said:
I've never encountered this with Isopropyl but have with Denatured Alcohol.

The are not that chemically different.
Of course there is the additive to denatured, which makes it a big no-no for anything optical or mechanical.
Iso will affect pigment binders, dyes and can harden/make brittle some glues.

Stuck self timer/shutter on Ikonta 522/24

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