Striations on film negative

Looking for ideas on what is causing these striations the entire length of this roll of film. I've attached a picture. This roll of Arista EDU Ultra 200 was bulk loaded onto a previously used cassette purchased on eBay as part of a lot of lab processed rolls for bulk loading. This is the first bulk loading I have done and I used a brand new Lloyds loader. I cleaned out the loader before first use including running some exposed film through the felt light trap. The camera I used was a Pentax Spotmatic F that I purchased on Ebay one year ago and this was its first use. I checked my other four bulk loaded cassettes to see if the leaders showed any sign of scratching but they all looked clean. I also checked the interior of the camera including the pressure plate and that all looked clean.

Development process was Cinestill df96 monobath with FotoFlo finish and hung to dry with no wiping of the negative strip. Scanner is an Epson V600 using the negative holder. I've developed many rolls using this process with no issues so I'm thinking this is narrowed down to one of the first time new things I did with this roll.

I'm going to run another roll of film through a different camera tomorrow and see how they develop with the idea of doing a process of elimination. Possible causes I'm reading about are dust/grit particles in the felt of the loader or the cassette, or the same in the camera. I picked the attached example because it has a lot of visible sky which is where the striations are most obvious. I'm also attaching a photo with no sky in which the striations are less obvious. Thanks for taking the time to comment on this.

michaelapdx said:

Looking for ideas on what is causing these striations the entire length of this roll of film.

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Possible causes:
1. film (scratched or defective emulsion);
2. bulk-loader scratching the film;
3. cassette scratching the film;
4. camera scratching the film;
5. developing artifacts (can't think of any cause);
6. scanning artifacts.

Elimination ideas:
(1) in darkness: remove the roll from the bulk loader, unwind and cut a few frames, load in the developing tank; fix the film and check for the striations;
(2) same as (1) but run the film through the bulk loader (use an empty spool without the cassette);
(3) same as (2) but use the cassette this time;
(4) load the film into the camera (either using a cassette or just a spool), expose a few frames of a uniform target (sky or grey card), develop, fix, inspect.
(5) ?
(6) inspect the negatives on the light table/monitor/mobile screen and check if the striations are real. Possibly, start with this.

Romanko said:

6. scanning artifacts.

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Almost guaranteed to be this.

@michaelapdx verify if the artefacts are visible in the actual negatives. Forget about scans for now; focus on the film first.

koraks said:

Almost guaranteed to be this.

@michaelapdx verify if the artefacts are visible in the actual negatives. Forget about scans for now; focus on the film first.

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They are visible on the negatives. I noticed this as I was looking at the hanging strip before cutting for the scanner.

Romanko said:

Possible causes:
1. film (scratched or defective emulsion);
2. bulk-loader scratching the film;
3. cassette scratching the film;
4. camera scratching the film;
5. developing artifacts (can't think of any cause);
6. scanning artifacts.

Elimination ideas:
(1) in darkness: remove the roll from the bulk loader, unwind and cut a few frames, load in the developing tank; fix the film and check for the striations;
(2) same as (1) but run the film through the bulk loader (use an empty spool without the cassette);
(3) same as (2) but use the cassette this time;
(4) load the film into the camera (either using a cassette or just a spool), expose a few frames of a uniform target (sky or grey card), develop, fix, inspect.
(5) ?
(6) inspect the negatives on the light table/monitor/mobile screen and check if the striations are real. Possibly, start with this.

Click to expand...

Will do these suggestions today.

As I sit with my morning coffee it occurred to me that just before loading the film strips into the scanner holder I used a microfiber cloth to wipe down the strip. I had been using this cloth to clean the scanner bed and holding tray so it definitely wasn't fresh out of a package. If the microfiber cloth had dust in it would that be enough to scratch the length of the negative strip? My memory might be bad about when I first noticed the marks.

As straight as the lines are, it almost certainly has to do with the film path in one of three things; your loader, your camera aperture or your film cassette.

Personally, I would suspect in order the felt in the loader, the cassette and finally the camera gate.

May we assume the bulk load was fresh?

Those just don't look like the kind of marks you get on a negative itself - that is what I'd expect from a dirty scanner. You can SEE these lines on the negatives, viewed directly??

michaelapdx said:

They are visible on the negatives.

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OK, thanks for checking.

michaelapdx said:

If the microfiber cloth had dust in it would that be enough to scratch the length of the negative strip?

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Dust, no, but something like sand etc., possibly. But it's very difficult to get film scratched this way. The only way I've come close was by using a bulk loader wrong: by spooling the film without opening the gate. The film then drags with the emulsion side across the plastic of the light trap, which can cause these kinds of striations.

So given what you've told about this roll, I'd look at how you used the bulk loader and if perhaps you made a mistake here. What kind of loader is it? E.g. with this type:

it's essential that you close the light trap, tape the leader of the film onto the spindle, insert spindle into cassette, close the cassette and put it into the loader. Then close the lid, open the light trap by rotating the outer rim on the large part of the loader and then spool the film. When done, close the light trap and open the lid, cut off the leader and repeat for the next roll.

My guess is you forgot that bit about the light trap.

The OP states it is a Lloyds loader, which does not have the clamping gate like the Watson Loader. The only thing that keeps light from entering the chamber is a "S" light trap lined with felt or velvet.

Check that the bulk roll spins freely inside the chamber and that the light trap is clean and without burrs.

Other than that, it's probably the cassette.

koraks said:

OK, thanks for checking.



Dust, no, but something like sand etc., possibly. But it's very difficult to get film scratched this way. The only way I've come close was by using a bulk loader wrong: by spooling the film without opening the gate. The film then drags with the emulsion side across the plastic of the light trap, which can cause these kinds of striations.

So given what you've told about this roll, I'd look at how you used the bulk loader and if perhaps you made a mistake here. What kind of loader is it? E.g. with this type:
View attachment 365536
it's essential that you close the light trap, tape the leader of the film onto the spindle, insert spindle into cassette, close the cassette and put it into the loader. Then close the lid, open the light trap by rotating the outer rim on the large part of the loader and then spool the film. When done, close the light trap and open the lid, cut off the leader and repeat for the next roll.

My guess is you forgot that bit about the light trap.

Click to expand...

As Kino says it's Lloyds loader so there is no gate to open/close and the loader is brand new. I just took some test shots, developed, and hung to dry. I had rolled a batch of 5 cassettes initially so I used one of those. I did some exposures in a different known good camera and loaded those onto a reel in dark bag and sealed in tank. Then I took the cassette with remaining film and took remaining exposures with the Spotmatic I used with the first (problem) role. If no striations on either roll I'll assume it was the cassette. If striations just on the Spotmatic exposures I'll investigate the camera more. If striations on both sets then I'll still need to look at the film itself and the Lloyds loader. A closer look at the previous negatives clearly shows the striations were part of the developed negative.

Result of today's test. No striations using the second bulk loaded cassette in the shots from the Spotmatic and from the known good camera. My assumption now is that it was the previous cassette. The test pic with the house and car is from the Spotmatic which I used with the problem roll and the juniper tree top is with the known good camera, a Sears KSX.

koraks said:

OK, thanks for checking.



Dust, no, but something like sand etc., possibly. But it's very difficult to get film scratched this way. The only way I've come close was by using a bulk loader wrong: by spooling the film without opening the gate. The film then drags with the emulsion side across the plastic of the light trap, which can cause these kinds of striations.

So given what you've told about this roll, I'd look at how you used the bulk loader and if perhaps you made a mistake here. What kind of loader is it? E.g. with this type:
View attachment 365536
it's essential that you close the light trap, tape the leader of the film onto the spindle, insert spindle into cassette, close the cassette and put it into the loader. Then close the lid, open the light trap by rotating the outer rim on the large part of the loader and then spool the film. When done, close the light trap and open the lid, cut off the leader and repeat for the next roll.

My guess is you forgot that bit about the light trap.

Click to expand...

Forgetting about the light trap seems to be a right of passage for bulk film users. I did it one myself, so you are in good company.

michaelapdx said:

My assumption now is that it was the previous cassette.

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Yeah, that's possible. If you still have it, I'd inspect it to verify; it helps to know what the problem is/was.

koraks said:

Yeah, that's possible. If you still have it, I'd inspect it to verify; it helps to know what the problem is/was.

Click to expand...

I did and the only thing I noticed is there was barely any upper felt. I'm wondering if during loading on to the spool if the film was contacting the metal lip of the cassette. The bulk film was taped to the stub of the old spool film with scotch tape so perhaps the tape pulled back on the what little felt there was exposing the metal lip.

That sounds plausible, indeed. Well, hopefully the problem stays away!