Streaky underdevelopment on Adox CHS II 4x5

dburian · Sep 1, 2019

In the attached picture of a picture, you can see a diagonal streak of film underdevelopment in the sky. This isn’t a one-off, I have several negatives from the same batch with the same issue. The areas of underdevelopment are on the negatives, it’s not the print(s).

The films were pre-wet for 2’ in temperature matched water (which Adox used to recommend for this film but I now see this is no longer required), then were developed in 20C Silvermax 1+19 for 7’40” in a Jobo as one-shot developer and fixed in Formulary TF-5 one-shot, both mixed fresh at time of use in distilled water.

I would think the Jobo takes bromide drag out of the picture (so to speak). Is it possible my developer wasn’t sufficiently mixed upon addition to the tank? My Jobo has a lift so the tank is spinning when I add all chemicals but maybe?? At first I thought the pre-wetting step hadn’t completely removed the anti-halation layer but since this is no longer recommended, what difference would this have made, not to mention, 2’ constant agitation, surely not???

So you see my conundrum, any help appreciated, Dennis

Peter Schrager · Sep 1, 2019

Equally interested in info on this and more about this film
Not much information out there

dburian · Sep 16, 2019

Peter Schrager said:
Equally interested in info on this and more about this film
Not much information out there

Peter, in a different location, there was discussion about Jobo tanks absorbing fixer. Apparently, Jobo recommends not fixing in the tanks. That got me thinking that fix might be leaching out of my tanks and streaking the negatives during pre-wash or development. I know, it’s a stretch given that the tank is rotating the whole time.
I like the film/developer combination so I’m willing to tinker with process to keep using it.
Dennis

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 16, 2019

It's a very nice film that I've been using occasionally for about a year. I never presoak the film before development.

Nodda Duma · Sep 16, 2019

That reminds me of the swirly artifacts on my dry plates that I spent a long time troubleshooting. I found they are reduced if I can minimize the time the emulsion is melted.

Any other examples of the artifact?

K-G · Sep 16, 2019

As the streaks are dark in the positive image, they must be light in the negative. This can support your thoughts of fixer contamination during prewash.
I have developed a few negatives of CHS 100 II in 4X5 from the new batch and they were perfect ( technically !!! ) . I used Rodinal 1:50 in a small tray.

Karl-Gustaf

scheimfluger_77 · Sep 17, 2019

dburian said:
...in a different location, there was discussion about Jobo tanks absorbing fixer. Apparently, Jobo recommends not fixing in the tanks....

This is a curious comment. In all the Jobo research I’ve done in the forums I don’t recall this statement. Do you mean to say that Jobo recommends going dark after the stop bath and finishing the fix in some other container in the dark? That would make color processing quite a chore.

Is it possible your equipment wasn’t 100% clean when you started this last time? I don’t mean to suggest you are careless, I just can’t wrap my head around the reasonableness of the “Jobo tanks absorbing fixer” assertion.

Patrick Robert James · Sep 17, 2019

What JOBO are you using? 3010? 2500?

Neal · Sep 18, 2019

In roughly 20 years of using a Jobo I have had zero problems due to their system. The idea that you can't fix in a Jobo tank is simply wrong.

Wild guesses: 1 - The problems are at the inner end of the reel and you don't use enough liquid. 2 - The pre-wet time needs to be longer (or better yet, eliminated). 3 - The reels snap on to the adjustable center sections and if one end or the other is slightly askew the film might have come out of the track and gotten too close together.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

dburian · Jan 17, 2020

scheimfluger_77 said:
This is a curious comment. In all the Jobo research I’ve done in the forums I don’t recall this statement. Do you mean to say that Jobo recommends going dark after the stop bath and finishing the fix in some other container in the dark? That would make color processing quite a chore.

Is it possible your equipment wasn’t 100% clean when you started this last time? I don’t mean to suggest you are careless, I just can’t wrap my head around the reasonableness of the “Jobo tanks absorbing fixer” assertion.

I'm grasping at straws and looking for suggestions. You're not going to hurt my feelings and careless is always a possibility. Unfortunately, this is a chronic issue for me with this film and isn't a problem with TMY suggesting that the problem isn't fixer on the reels.
I do my wash step on the Jobo by doing 15 1' water changes and have relied on that to clean

Patrick Robert James said:
What JOBO are you using? 3010? 2500?

2500 in a CPA2 with lift.
D

dburian · Jan 17, 2020

Neal said:
In roughly 20 years of using a Jobo I have had zero problems due to their system. The idea that you can't fix in a Jobo tank is simply wrong.

Wild guesses: 1 - The problems are at the inner end of the reel and you don't use enough liquid. 2 - The pre-wet time needs to be longer (or better yet, eliminated). 3 - The reels snap on to the adjustable center sections and if one end or the other is slightly askew the film might have come out of the track and gotten too close together.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

I agree that the idea of not fixing in the Jobo is absurd at face value, I'm just reporting what I read somewhere else. But it's the internet, the ultimate democracy.
Thanks for the suggestions,
D

dburian · Jan 17, 2020

scheimfluger_77 said:
This is a curious comment. In all the Jobo research I’ve done in the forums I don’t recall this statement. Do you mean to say that Jobo recommends going dark after the stop bath and finishing the fix in some other container in the dark? That would make color processing quite a chore.

Is it possible your equipment wasn’t 100% clean when you started this last time? I don’t mean to suggest you are careless, I just can’t wrap my head around the reasonableness of the “Jobo tanks absorbing fixer” assertion.

Anythings possible, including carelessness; you're not going to hurt my feelings, I asked for the help. The truly baffling part of this is that I develop TMY in 4x5, and multiple 35mm films in the same machine, same processes, same chemistries, no problems. It's specific to CHS ii which I only shoot in 4x5.
Thanks for the help, D

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 17, 2020

Have you tried to put a drop or two of a wetting agent like photo flo or Edwal LFN? This will break the surface tension of the developer. I process a sheet of 8x10 in my Paterson Orbital. My test sheet came out streaky. The next sheet I pre-wet the sheet with water before developer and the streaks disappeared.

Patrick Robert James · Jan 17, 2020

dburian said:
I'm grasping at straws and looking for suggestions. You're not going to hurt my feelings and careless is always a possibility. Unfortunately, this is a chronic issue for me with this film and isn't a problem with TMY suggesting that the problem isn't fixer on the reels.
I do my wash step on the Jobo by doing 15 1' water changes and have relied on that to clean

2500 in a CPA2 with lift.
D

Those marks are bubbles. I can think of three possible causes.

It is possible the reels aren't being held on tight to the center shaft so they don't spin with the tank and there isn't enough agitation to move the bubbles. I've had that happen to me.

Are you using a wetting agent in the developer? I once had the new LFN combine with the Propylene Glycol of Pyrocat to make a bubbly mess... On the other hand, if you aren't it is possible LFN could fix it. I stopped using LFN with any Glycol mixes but I still use it with PMK and Rodinal.

It is possible you might not be using enough developer. That might cause the problem you are having. Or it could be a combination of not using enough developer and the reels are loose.

Fixer isn't an issue. Whoever said that was just wrong. JOBO reels can get sticky with some chems like PhotoFlo and color stabilizer. Maybe that is what the person meant.

Hope that helps you.

dburian · Jan 17, 2020

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Have you tried to put a drop or two of a wetting agent like photo flo or Edwal LFN? This will break the surface tension of the developer. I process a sheet of 8x10 in my Paterson Orbital. My test sheet came out streaky. The next sheet I pre-wet the sheet with water before developer and the streaks disappeared.

I have not tried that but it's a good suggestion. I'll give it a try, Thanks, Dennis

dburian · Jan 17, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
Those marks are bubbles. I can think of three possible causes.

It is possible the reels aren't being held on tight to the center shaft so they don't spin with the tank and there isn't enough agitation to move the bubbles. I've had that happen to me.

Are you using a wetting agent in the developer? I once had the new LFN combine with the Propylene Glycol of Pyrocat to make a bubbly mess... On the other hand, if you aren't it is possible LFN could fix it. I stopped using LFN with any Glycol mixes but I still use it with PMK and Rodinal.

It is possible you might not be using enough developer. That might cause the problem you are having. Or it could be a combination of not using enough developer and the reels are loose.

Fixer isn't an issue. Whoever said that was just wrong. JOBO reels can get sticky with some chems like PhotoFlo and color stabilizer. Maybe that is what the person meant.

Hope that helps you.

I'm using Silvermax Developer 1+19 in a final volume of 270mL (Jobo 2523 tank). So the cure might be 300 mLs with a PhotoFlo prewet in a tray. I don't want to put PhotoFlo in the tank if I can help it.
Thanks all, Dennis

Streaky underdevelopment on Adox CHS II 4x5

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Streaky underdevelopment on Adox CHS II 4x5

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