Strange Streaks on the sky on 4x5

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Dear all, i have encounter some problem when develop colour C41 on my negative. I used jobo 2500 series as well as expert drum 3006, the problem still encounter.

Down there is an example of two negatives using a jobo expert drum, notice when i bump the contrast to maximum, the strange streaks seems to appear.

my developing process:

cpa2 machine (rotation speed "p" ), using expert drum 3006

dry pre-heat 5 -mins to 38 C
3:15 dev using Kodak flexicolor chemistry
1:00 stopbath (2% acetic acid)
6:30 bleach
1:00 water wash (change water 2 times each 30s)
6:30 fixer
30 mins wash
1 min Kodak Ektarcolor stabliser
---
All the chemistry are new, and the colour in the above film change in NLP seems to be normal.
My first idea is that it is an uneven develop due to lack of agitation, but this only happen in a large sky situation, and the sky streaks appear randomly, but they are barely visible in the negatives, but can be seen in scanner .

My rotating speed of my negative seems to be very fast enough, so for now i cannot tell whether this is uneven develop or not, can anybody tell me what happen in here?

glbeas · Apr 11, 2020

Possibly the antihalation not washing completely, also could be you are not filling the drum quickly enough and starting rotation so creating developer tracks. Also was the drum completely dry when you loaded the film?

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

glbeas said:
Possibly the antihalation not washing completely, also could be you are not filling the drum quickly enough and starting rotation so creating developer tracks. Also was the drum completely dry when you loaded the film?

Glbeas, I have wash the film for at least 30 mins after the process before apply stabiliser, in some case i have wash it over an hour, with a jobo cascade film washer

and i start the rotation of the jobo machine before i pour the developer inside.

The drum is completely dry when i load the film.

Mind this not only happen in expert drum but also in 2500 series tank

Donald Qualls · Apr 11, 2020

Any chance the film could have gotten wet or had condensation (from being removed from freezer or refrigerator without airtight packaging)? I've seen similar markings on B&W films, consensus was it was due to sensitizing dyes migrating with water movement due to condensation.

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Any chance the film could have gotten wet or had condensation (from being removed from freezer or refrigerator without airtight packaging)? I've seen similar markings on B&W films, consensus was it was due to sensitizing dyes migrating with water movement due to condensation.

Thank you for the reply , i have also thought about maybe the film stock problem, but those porta film i was bought from B&H and never put it in fridge (only put in a humidity control storebox) as i use them quite fast. And even so, the sample photo i was showing are actually from two different package of film, one is porta 400 and the other is porta 160...and i am quite sure they are bone dry when i loaded them.

Donald Qualls · Apr 11, 2020

Then we're back to something occurring either during or after development.

With the drum already spinning before adding the liquids, it's hard to picture streaks like this, presumably running edge to edge on the film. Now, if these are running lengthwise on the film strip. they could be due to a slow fill...

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2020

How long do you wash the film before processing? The antihalation coating might not be full removed.

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

A little bit of addition information:

i mix my developer base on kodak cis-292 using Flexicolor LORR LU to C-41SM Developer each time in 1 L
and i use Bleach III NR and flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher as my bleach and fixer.

the problem is not all the image has this streaks, some of them without the sky dun see this problem even if i bump up the contrast. See in this example, the negative and picture are perfect normal.

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Then we're back to something occurring either during or after development.

With the drum already spinning before adding the liquids, it's hard to picture streaks like this, presumably running edge to edge on the film. Now, if these are running lengthwise on the film strip. they could be due to a slow fill...

Mention of that ,it is interesting to say that in jobo expert the streaks is from top to bottom while in jobo 2500 series, it is mostly going horizontal, like here.

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
How long do you wash the film before processing? The antihalation coating might not be full removed.

I only pre wash my b+w negative but don't pre wash my color negative, i only pre warm it as i read from this forum, it may mess up the dilution of the developer.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2020

alanieon said:
I only pre wash my b+w negative but don't pre wash my color negative, i only pre warm it as i read from this forum, it may mess up the dilution of the developer.

No it will not dilute the developer. Prewash and completely drain. You can take a little longer to drain the prewash since that will not affect the development, although after that, as you know, the timing is critical.

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
No it will not dilute the developer. Prewash and completely drain. You can take a little longer to drain the prewash since that will not affect the development, although after that, as you know, the timing is critical.

Thank you so much fot the idea, I will try two prewet steps like PE said in this thread tomorrow
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/any-tips-for-c-41-in-a-jobo.62932/

as i divide the last batch film into two parts so can do a double cross examination

will post some results here, thx.

Patrick Robert James · Apr 11, 2020

alanieon said:
Thank you so much fot the idea, I will try two prewet like PE said in this thread tomorrow
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/any-tips-for-c-41-in-a-jobo.62932/

as i divide the last batch film into two parts so can do a double cross examination

will post some results here, thx.

Just prewet all your film. No use messing up any more of it.

Not sure where you got the idea to put the developer in a dry tank. Gotta be careful what you read on the internet and who you believe....

alanieon · Apr 11, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
Just prewet all your film. No use messing up any more of it.

Not sure where you got the idea to put the developer in a dry tank. Gotta be careful what you read on the internet and who you believe....

http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/introduction_to_processing.pdf

Here has a specific instruction "A dry 'incubation' of the tank and film allows the tank and film to rise to the process temperature."

That 's what jobo officially mention

Donald Qualls · Apr 11, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
Just prewet all your film. No use messing up any more of it.

Not sure where you got the idea to put the developer in a dry tank. Gotta be careful what you read on the internet and who you believe....

I've never prewashed film. Not in fifty years. And I've never seen streaks from uneven development on my film, certainly not ones that look like those. Prewashing is controversial -- only with long, seemingly unsupported arguments (on both sides) about whether there's any benefit to it. It's clearly undesirable for two-bath developers, as they depend on the Part A being able to soak into the film in order to carry enough developing agent into Bath B to complete development once the accelerator/preservative are present.

If you put your developer onto wet film, it will enter the emulsion more slowly (because the emulsion is already wet, and the clean water in the gelatin has to be displace or the chemistry diffuse into it), effectively reducing development time (slightly, probably not by enough to matter except in very short processes, say under three minutes). The instructions for Cinestill Df96 monobath specifically say not to prewash (though I've seen it done in YouTube videos, seemingly without harm), likely because their process is very rapid.

C-41, however, is a pretty rapid process at standard temperature of 100 F -- under four minutes. This is exactly the situation where I'd expect prewash to make things worse instead of better, because the few extra seconds it takes for the developer to actually reach the halides in the emulsion is a larger fraction of total development time than it would be in, say, D-76 1+2 with an ISO 400 emulsion like Tri-X.

I don't know the Jobo system well enough to comment on how long it might take to add the solutions at each stage of the process, or whether it's faster with the tank off the machine vs. already turning (and whether that can compensate for the low volume rotary systems like this allow). But I think it very unlikely that prewashing the film will help this problem.

koraks · Apr 11, 2020

Looks like a pour-in problem where the developer runs across the film in streaks before it's being completely covered. You could try increasing the developer volume, varying the rotation speed and in any case make sure you do the pouring quickly and mount the drum as quickly as possible (not entirely sure if you're using the lift on your jobo; I dont have experience with those).

Presoak is something I never found necessary.

MattKing · Apr 11, 2020

As I understand it, at least one of the arguments is that a pre-wash swells the gelatin, which enhances the ability of the developer to diffuse quickly and evenly into it.
I expect differences in the quality and qualities of the water used to both mix the developer and to pre-wash the film account for much of the inconsistency of results.

Patrick Robert James · Apr 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
I've never prewashed film. Not in fifty years. And I've never seen streaks from uneven development on my film, certainly not ones that look like those. Prewashing is controversial -- only with long, seemingly unsupported arguments (on both sides) about whether there's any benefit to it. It's clearly undesirable for two-bath developers, as they depend on the Part A being able to soak into the film in order to carry enough developing agent into Bath B to complete development once the accelerator/preservative are present.

If you put your developer onto wet film, it will enter the emulsion more slowly (because the emulsion is already wet, and the clean water in the gelatin has to be displace or the chemistry diffuse into it), effectively reducing development time (slightly, probably not by enough to matter except in very short processes, say under three minutes). The instructions for Cinestill Df96 monobath specifically say not to prewash (though I've seen it done in YouTube videos, seemingly without harm), likely because their process is very rapid.

C-41, however, is a pretty rapid process at standard temperature of 100 F -- under four minutes. This is exactly the situation where I'd expect prewash to make things worse instead of better, because the few extra seconds it takes for the developer to actually reach the halides in the emulsion is a larger fraction of total development time than it would be in, say, D-76 1+2 with an ISO 400 emulsion like Tri-X.

I don't know the Jobo system well enough to comment on how long it might take to add the solutions at each stage of the process, or whether it's faster with the tank off the machine vs. already turning (and whether that can compensate for the low volume rotary systems like this allow). But I think it very unlikely that prewashing the film will help this problem.

I have only two letters for you Donald that say all I need to say.

P.E.

Donald Qualls · Apr 11, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
I have only two letters for you Donald that say all I need to say.

P.E.

So, instead of either telling me what he said (merely implying it) or giving a link, you expect me to go back and read every word he ever posted, here and on photo.net, to find something about prewashing film? I'll just take that as you being in favor of prewash, and I'll continue to have no trouble with pouring developer into a dry tank containing dry film.

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
So, instead of either telling me what he said (merely implying it) or giving a link, you expect me to go back and read every word he ever posted, here and on photo.net, to find something about prewashing film? I'll just take that as you being in favor of prewash, and I'll continue to have no trouble with pouring developer into a dry tank containing dry film.

Yes

Sirius Glass · Apr 11, 2020

Do not change the rotation rate. You have it at the correct rate.
Read over what PE has posted on C-41 processing for now, and the black & white processing when you have time.

Patrick Robert James · Apr 11, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
So, instead of either telling me what he said (merely implying it) or giving a link, you expect me to go back and read every word he ever posted, here and on photo.net, to find something about prewashing film? I'll just take that as you being in favor of prewash, and I'll continue to have no trouble with pouring developer into a dry tank containing dry film.

The problem here Donald is you have no experience with JOBO so your opinion on the matter isn't really relevant.

apollodarkroom · Apr 12, 2020

I used to see the exact same type of streaks on my medium format color negatives developed with various c41 kits. It drove me absolutely nuts, in fact I almost quit home color film development because I was exhausted by wasting perfectly good film and moments. Even more frustrating was that I couldn’t locate anyone online with the same development issue.

Ultimately I did not narrow down the precise cause, but it did go away with the following changes:
1. Switched to Tetenal kit for chemistry
2. Switched from stainless steel tank and reels to Paterson tank and plastic reels. This allowed the chemistry to be poured in faster, and use of stick agitation only.
3. Switched to wide mouth bottles to hold chemistry, again to enable faster pouring into the tank.
4. Used both a 3 minute pre-wash and a 1 minute wash between developer and blix. I don’t believe Tetenal recommends either of these, all they have is a 3 minute wash between blix and stabilizer.
5. Shake off excess stabilizer from reel, remove film, and hang to dry with no squeegeeing.

Know that I’m not an expert nor old timer. I’ve developed roughly ~125 color rolls of 35mm and medium format at home over the past 2 years. I would see this issue intermittently and much more prominently on the medium format rolls. The takeaway I would give is to adjust your pouring, agitation, and washes as these seem to be some of the likely culprits.

peter k. · Apr 12, 2020

apollodarkroom said:
4. Used both a 3 minute pre-wash and a 1 minute wash between developer and blix. I don’t believe Tetenal recommends either of these, all they have is a 3 minute wash between blix and stabilizer.

Update: Just started using this kit, perhaps in the past they didn't, but now they do. Instructions on page 5 from the kit states..
"Pre heat the developer drum" 5' 00" & they have stated: 2' 30" wash between Colour developer and Bleach Blix and 4"00" wash between Bleach Fix and Stabilizer.

alanieon · Apr 13, 2020

Dear all:

Thx all for the input! After another trial using the same batch of film taken in the same scene with all the other parameter is unchanged but only this time by introducing a double pre-wet in 38C (100F) each for 30s,

the streaks problem is solved. All the films i develop this time is streaks free.

But on the other hand, when i develop in smaller format like 120 or 135, i never did prewet and never got any uneven develop problem, (of coz in all the develop case, i am using a cpa with a jobo lift.) And even in larger format like 45, ony scene with single colour affect the most, therefore, judging from the develop experiment, i can conclude that,

Conclusion:A double Pre-wet steps in develop colour C41 is important especially deal with a) when use a larger format of film; b) scene with a large part of single colour

Strange Streaks on the sky on 4x5

alanieon

Attachments

glbeas

alanieon

Donald Qualls

alanieon

Donald Qualls

Sirius Glass

alanieon

Attachments

alanieon

Attachments

alanieon

Sirius Glass

alanieon

Patrick Robert James

alanieon

Donald Qualls

koraks

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

Patrick Robert James

Donald Qualls

Sirius Glass

Sirius Glass

Patrick Robert James

apollodarkroom

peter k.

alanieon

Attachments

Strange Streaks on the sky on 4x5

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Attachments

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency