Strange stains on the negative

mau · Oct 13, 2024

Hello everyone

I've got some strange stains on a negative, and I'm not sure what they are.

They appear is some (not all) frames of a HP5+ 120 roll (I'm positive it's on the negative).
They are always on the same side, and only there.

My idea is that the film stuck to the spiral and developer or fixer couldn't properly get there.
The problem with this theory is that I checked and the spiral barely touches (if at all) the very edge of the frame.

Anybody else has an idea?

I used the Ilford Simplicity chemistry:
Ilfosol3 1+14 for 9:30 @ 22C
Ilfostop at recommeded dilution
Rapid fixer at recommended dilution
Final wash in distilled water
Dried in a film dryer at 30C if I remember correctly

Here is an example of the blotches, inside the red circle

Sirius Glass · Oct 13, 2024

It appears that you did not use a surfactant such as PhotoFlo? If not I recommend that you give it a try.

Has this ever happened before in your darkroom?

AnselMortensen · Oct 13, 2024

Paterson-type reel?
I have seen that type of mark when:

Insufficient level of developer in tank. Insufficient agitation.
Lack of inversion agitation.
Multiple 120 reels stacked on top of each other with too much pressure, distorting a reel slightly.

Hope this helps!

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 13, 2024

mau said:
Hello everyone

I've got some strange stains on a negative, and I'm not sure what they are.

They appear is some (not all) frames of a HP5+ 120 roll (I'm positive it's on the negative).
They are always on the same side, and only there.

My idea is that the film stuck to the spiral and developer or fixer couldn't properly get there.
The problem with this theory is that I checked and the spiral barely touches (if at all) the very edge of the frame.

Anybody else has an idea?

I used the Ilford Simplicity chemistry:
Ilfosol3 1+14 for 9:30 @ 22C
Ilfostop at recommeded dilution
Rapid fixer at recommended dilution
Final wash in distilled water
Dried in a film dryer at 30C if I remember correctly

Here is an example of the blotches, inside the red circle

Can you post a pic of the negative itself please?

Don_ih · Oct 13, 2024

Something about your scan makes me think your film is not fixed completely.

Augustus Caesar · Oct 13, 2024

mau said:
Hello everyone

I've got some strange stains on a negative, and I'm not sure what they are.

They appear is some (not all) frames of a HP5+ 120 roll (I'm positive it's on the negative).
They are always on the same side, and only there.

My idea is that the film stuck to the spiral and developer or fixer couldn't properly get there.
The problem with this theory is that I checked and the spiral barely touches (if at all) the very edge of the frame.

Anybody else has an idea?

I used the Ilford Simplicity chemistry:
Ilfosol3 1+14 for 9:30 @ 22C
Ilfostop at recommeded dilution
Rapid fixer at recommended dilution
Final wash in distilled water
Dried in a film dryer at 30C if I remember correctly

Here is an example of the blotches, inside the red circle

Fill the tank to the top with every solution, and you won't have this problem.

JensH · Oct 13, 2024

Hmm, to much density in the print/positive means too little on the negative.
So too little dev. could be the reason.

GregY · Oct 13, 2024

JensH said:
Hmm, to much density in the print/positive means too little on the negative.
So too little dev. could be the reason.

But it's on the side of the negative (where it joins another frame)...not on the top or bottom which would indicate insufficient developer in the tank.....

Romanko · Oct 13, 2024

This looks like uneven development. Possible causes include: insufficient volume of the developer, poor agitation and the reel floating in the multi-reel tank.

What tank and reels were you using and what was the volume of the developer and fixer?

JensH · Oct 13, 2024

GregY said:
But it's on the side of the negative (where it joins another frame)...not on the top or bottom which would indicate insufficient developer in the tank.....

OK, good point - then forget what I said...
One last idea: film not spooled correctly onto the reel making an unwanted film/film contact.

Romanko · Oct 13, 2024

GregY said:
But it's on the side of the negative (where it joins another frame)...not on the top or bottom which would indicate insufficient developer in the tank.....

@mau Could you please confirm this?

reddesert · Oct 14, 2024

A little bit of visible edge printing on the right side (side opposite the uneven marks) suggests that the marks are along the edge of the 120 film, not on the between-frames side. However, I agree that it would be useful to see the whole film and not just the scan. I agree that it looks like insufficient something - agitation, development, etc - or perhaps water marks from water adhering to the film-reel interface (lack of use of Photo-flo) - but hard to pin down.

koraks · Oct 14, 2024

GregY said:
it's on the side of the negative (where it joins another frame)...not on the top or bottom which would indicate insufficient developer in the tank.....

Incorrect!

reddesert said:
A little bit of visible edge printing on the right side (side opposite the uneven marks) suggests that the marks are along the edge of the 120 film, not on the between-frames side.

Correct.

JensH said:
So too little dev. could be the reason.

I agree.

@mau this is most likely due to air bubbles stuck along the edge of the film and held in place by the geometry of the reel/spiral. They move around a little, causing minus-density 'blobs' in a neat little row along the edge of the film.
Please also see @Romanko's questions:
* What brand and type of processing tank do you use?
* How much developer do you use (how many milliliters?)
* How do you agitate?
If memory serves, a Paterson System IV tank recommends something like 450ml for 120 roll film. Use 500ml.
After filling the tank with developer, tap it two or three times on the counter to dislodge any air bubbles.
Agitation should be fairly vigorous (although not like shaking a cocktail).
If you're using a tank with a 'twizzle stick', consider not using the stick for agitation, but instead just manually turn the tank over and over (refer to YouTube for agitation approaches).

250swb · Oct 14, 2024

Yes, not enough developer. 500ml amply fills a Paterson tank for one film but there does also seem to be some water staining on the negative where impurities have gathered as the film dries. The twizzle stick if nothing else ensures you aren't going to cause bubbles or surge marks by inverting the tank and sloshing the developer around. And unless you are using extended development times you won't get uneven development by using the stick, the clue is that Paterson have sold you one with the tank. The reason for a general rule regarding inverting the tank is because it takes into account every eventuality including extended development times and developing multiple films in one tank, but for one or two films and no more than 12 or 15 mins development time it's not necessary.

koraks · Oct 14, 2024

250swb said:
The twizzle stick if nothing else ensures you aren't going to cause bubbles or surge marks by inverting the tank and sloshing the developer around.

In general, I agree the twizzle stick works OK. However....when it comes to bubbles, there's an exception. Bubbles tend to form as you fill the tank. Using the twizzle stick allows them to remain in place, locked under the top of the reel, where they can 'roll around' as it were, without escaping. Inversion agitation will dislodge them (they'll 'flip over' to the other end of the tank as it tumbles), making it easier for them to escape.

However, the fill volume is the main factor at play in my experience.

rduraoc · Oct 14, 2024

This is why I like my AP tank, which is a Paterson derivative. The point at the bottom of the tank where the reel axis sits is wavy, which means that when one rotates with the stick the reels will also have a smooth up/down movement. No bubbles, no need for inversion.

mau · Oct 14, 2024

Thanks a lot guys for all these answers!

I'll try to answer to as many points as possible

First of all, as it was pointed out the marks are NOT between frames, they are at the top edge.

I've used a Jobo 1000 tank, like this one.
As you can see from the pictures, the suggested amount for one 120 roll is 420ml, but I've used 500 exactly to make sure the film would be covered.
There's a clip preventing the spiral from moving up and down the shaft.

Agitation: inversions for the first 15 seconds, and then four inversions at every minute. Tapped the tank on the table and a couple of times on the top every time after the inversions.

I forgot to mentioned I pre soaked the film in water for 3 minutes.

Thanks again everybody!

mau · Oct 14, 2024

I can't post a negative right now, I'll try tonight.
Also I used a crappy office scanner, so don't read too much into other artifacts/dirt spread around the picture

Don_ih · Oct 14, 2024

mau said:
Tapped the tank on the table and a couple of times on the top every time after the inversions.

To dislodge bubbles, the bottom of the tank should be rapped fairly forcefully on the countertop. You may not be aggressive enough with your banging. I use exactly that tank for inversion.

argent_negre · Oct 14, 2024

Don_ih said:
To dislodge bubbles, the bottom of the tank should be rapped fairly forcefully on the countertop. You may not be aggressive enough with your banging. I use exactly that tank for inversion.

I concur. These marks are quite common when developing 120 film (flickr is full of examples) and I'd bet that they are air bubbles, the large ones
that get traped between the spiral and the film. They are usually so large that you need to be aggressive when banging.

If you want to be sure, just sacrifice a roll of film, load it the tank, close it as if you were going to develop it, fill it with water, mimic your usual
motions and then open the top of the tank. You'll see the bubbles, if they are there.

250swb · Oct 14, 2024

Don_ih said:
To dislodge bubbles, the bottom of the tank should be rapped fairly forcefully on the countertop. You may not be aggressive enough with your banging. I use exactly that tank for inversion.

If you get bubbles in your measuring cylinder when measuring out the developer you've got a problem, if you don't then you shouldn't have bubbles after pouring it into the tank, they don't come from nowhere and the initial 30 second agitation with the twizzle stick should get rid of any, unless you've inverted and shaken the tank enough to cause bubbles. I mean I can see it with my orange juice in the morning, it's perfectly bubble free until I invert the bottle to get the juicy bits distributed at which point it froths. The differences of how solutions react to gentle stirring or aggressive whisking are as much applicable to photography as cooking.

Don_ih · Oct 15, 2024

250swb said:
If you get bubbles in your measuring cylinder when measuring out the developer you've got a problem, if you don't then you shouldn't have bubbles after pouring it into the tank, they don't come from nowhere and the initial 30 second agitation with the twizzle stick should get rid of any

The developer goes down the centre of the tank and rises through the reel, which is a large number of surfaces in close proximity to each other (the spiral, the film), giving lots of opportunity for bubbles to form from surface tension. The bubbles formed at the bottom of the reel may rise with the stick-rotation, but they won't get through the top of the reel. They need to stern whack to be persuaded.

The air in the bubbles isn't from the developer. It's already in the tank. It gets trapped as the surface of the water goes around obstacles and reconnects with itself.

Romanko · Oct 19, 2024

mau said:
I'll try to answer to as many points as possible

I see no problem with your technique.

When you poured out the pre-wash and the developer was the solution foamy? This often happens if you use a wetting agent (Photo-Flo) in your tank and do not thoroughly wash it afterwards. The foam traps the bubbles at the top of the reel causing uneven development.

I also have a Jobo 1000 tank and I like it. It takes much longer to fill and empty compared to Paterson but it is not a problem unless you use very short development times. I do use Paterson more often these days after I replaced the original spools with a better model that looks exactly like the Jobo except for the clip at the top which is a nice feature. I use a piece of PVC pipe instead to keep the reel submerged when I use only one reel in a 1L tank.

Strange stains on the negative

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