Strange result

Maine-iac · Oct 30, 2006

Last night, I was printing a negative on several different papers, for comparison's sake--- Agfa MCC, Kentmere (neutral), and Oriental (I've not used the new Oriental before, so was trying it out to see how it compared to their old "blue box" Seagull stuff I used to use.)

I put the prints through my usual end-of-process bath in Sprint Fixer Remover with a 1:40 dollop of Selenium Toner (for protective purposes only) and then into the wash. I do a combination of running-water, still water soaking wash.

During the soaking, when I came in to change the water, I noticed that the Oriental prints had all taken on a yellow-ish brown color including the white borders. The other prints were normal. The Orientals look as though they were printed on a warmtone, ivory-base paper. Earlier in the process, they looked normal (neutral-cool toned blacks and white borders).

Is the new Oriental paper especially sensitive to Selenium Toner so that even a 1:40 bath for two minutes could have given them an overall-yellowish stain?

My fixer was freshly mixed for the session--a 1:9 mix of Naaco Zip fix.

Larry

reellis67 · Oct 30, 2006

Are you sure that that particular print was washed well (i.e. not stuck to other prints in the wash)? It sould like it *could* be staining from incomplete washing. I've not seen this myself, so I can only speculate, but I've used the new Oriental FB VC paper and not seen this problem.

- Randy

Maine-iac · Oct 30, 2006

reellis67 said:
Are you sure that that particular print was washed well (i.e. not stuck to other prints in the wash)? It sould like it *could* be staining from incomplete washing. I've not seen this myself, so I can only speculate, but I've used the new Oriental FB VC paper and not seen this problem.

- Randy

I don't think this could be the problem; I do face-face/back-front rotation of prints while doing a running water wash at the beginning of the wash period. Then, I do several soaks in still water, each time rotating the prints again several times. I've never encountered the problem before; only with the Oriental prints in last night's session. The Agfa and Kentmere prints were not affected.

Larry

don sigl · Oct 30, 2006

This is contamination caused by fixer coming into contact with selenium. The best thing to do is to completely wash all fix out before toning in selenium. You may get away with the combining a hypo clearing agent with selenium, but I would strongly discourage it. Obviously, the oriental didn't like it. I can tell you that the forte papers won't tolerate it either. All fix should be removed before toning in selenium. The result you have indicates that this was not the case.

Maine-iac · Oct 30, 2006

don sigl said:
This is contamination caused by fixer coming into contact with selenium. The best thing to do is to completely wash all fix out before toning in selenium. You may get away with the combining a hypo clearing agent with selenium, but I would strongly discourage it. Obviously, the oriental didn't like it. I can tell you that the forte papers won't tolerate it either. All fix should be removed before toning in selenium. The result you have indicates that this was not the case.

Thanks, Don. Sounds plausible. My normal procedure has been to do several rinses of the prints before putting them in the wash aid/toner bath. I haven't noticed the effect on Forte paper (but maybe I've just been lucky). Perhaps it could also be that I recently switched to using Sprint Fixer Remover instead of Heico Perma-wash which has really increased in price since the last batch I bought. Maybe the formulation is different enough that the amount of fixer remaining in the print after the pre-wash rinses is sufficient to trigger the response in the Oriental paper.

Larry

glennfromwy · Oct 30, 2006

Sounds like selenium staining, caused by hypo still in the print. Kind of orange stain?

Maine-iac · Nov 1, 2006

glennfromwy said:
Sounds like selenium staining, caused by hypo still in the print. Kind of orange stain?

Yeah, orang-ish tan. I think you must be right.

Larry

dancqu · Nov 1, 2006

Maine-iac said:
My normal procedure has been to do several rinses of the
prints before putting them in the wash aid/toner bath. Larry

A single acid fix was used? Strange how papers and
developers interact. Some papers need no bromide and
others do. You're sure the stain was not there post
developer?

Consider giving Agfa's recommended hca a try; 2%
sodium carbonate. You'll need to narrow down by
elimination the cause of the "stain". Dan

Maine-iac · Nov 2, 2006

dancqu said:
A single acid fix was used? Strange how papers and
developers interact. Some papers need no bromide and
others do. You're sure the stain was not there post
developer?

Consider giving Agfa's recommended hca a try; 2%
sodium carbonate. You'll need to narrow down by
elimination the cause of the "stain". Dan

The stain was definitely not there in post-development, nor while in the water holding tray throughout the printing session. It didn't even appear in the hca/highly-dilute selenium bath, but only in the final washing process.

I expect that most likely Don is right about the cause--Oriental's interaction with selenium if there is any residual fixer in the paper. I may try your suggestion of a 2% carbonate bath, however. Washing soda is cheap.

Larry

dancqu · Nov 2, 2006

Maine-iac said:
I may try your suggestion of a 2% carbonate bath, however.
Washing soda is cheap. Larry

Cheap. So too bicarbonate of soda though it's ph is lower.
Are not the two of less environmental concern? At least
at the user end?

Reading from a Kodak box of KHCA; when toning with
KRST, add 71 grams/gallon, of Kodalk to the KHCA.
That Kodak instruction is for a "Before Toning"
hypo clearing. In effect they instruct that
the print have no trace of acidity. How's
your wash water?

So from Kodak; fix, hca + Kodalk, Wash,
tone, hca, Wash. Recall, all Kodak fixers
are acidic. IIRC, A. Adams took his prints
from a second plain alkaline fix directly
into a hca + KRST solution. Dan

Maine-iac · Nov 3, 2006

dancqu said:
Cheap. So too bicarbonate of soda though it's ph is lower.
Are not the two of less environmental concern? At least
at the user end?

Reading from a Kodak box of KHCA; when toning with
KRST, add 71 grams/gallon, of Kodalk to the KHCA.
That Kodak instruction is for a "Before Toning"
hypo clearing. In effect they instruct that
the print have no trace of acidity. How's
your wash water?

So from Kodak; fix, hca + Kodalk, Wash,
tone, hca, Wash. Recall, all Kodak fixers
are acidic. IIRC, A. Adams took his prints
from a second plain alkaline fix directly
into a hca + KRST solution. Dan

Both washing soda and bicarb are environment friendly.

My wash water is pretty much pH neutral and not high mineral content either.

Interesting tip from Kodak. Appears to confirm Don's suggestion of residual (acidic) fixer reacting with the toner, even at the very dilute concentration. After I finish my current batch of Rapid Fix (always used without hardener), I may switch to Ryuji's pH neutral version of rapid fix.

Larry

Strange result

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency