Strange marks in sprocket holes, ONLY on HP5??

Nikanon · Nov 10, 2015

David Allen said:
Well there seems to be several things going on.

Firstly, the images of the negatives display varying degrees of purple stains which would indicate uneven/insufficient fixing.

Secondly, the darker marks only seem to appear adjacent to the very dense negatives. Perhaps this might indicate spread of light from the densely exposed area of the film?

Thirdly, the marks travel along the rebate rather than from the sprockets downwards into the image. The only time I have seen something anywhere similar was back when a friend of mine used to bulk load film in reusable cassettes. After some time, the felt light trap became worn and, when changing films outdoors, he experienced marks on his negatives where light had leaked into the cassette.

Finally, you mention that it only happens on films that have been exposed months before. How do you store your films during this period?

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

David,

not worried about the uneven fixing, it occurs sometimes with my reels the way the film contacts it, although I fix for about 7-8 minutes with even agitation, so im sure thats plenty, but again that isnt my concern.

Not so in all cases, for example the second image I posted, the scan itself which displays the errors in the bottom right and left leaking into the frame is very light, the "artifact" exposure seems to be totally irrelevant as I have experienced what you are talking about before

Your third option is one I considered and Ilford (in a preliminary email ) suggested as a possible (but unlikely) cause. I do not bulk load anything, the films are all purchased pre spooled HP5.

Which leads into the final point though that once the film is shot it goes directly back into the black ilford canister it comes in and goes into a bag stored in a temperature controlled environment at my work in a desk. I have done this with Tri-x for a while and still have no issue with that film, and I have developed varying ages of HP5 and maybe 1 out of every 10 rolls has this issue to some degree.

Nikanon · Nov 10, 2015

Xmas said:
You have not linked your previous posts?

Your first post says one MP your second three Leicas,

Can you confirm that the problem has occurred on more than one Leica?

Do you always use ilford factory loaded cassettes?

Use Tx until you get the fault again attribute each Tx cassette to camera by taking a shot of a plaque-card with digits of serial number of camera on frame 1.

If the fault does not re-occur don't worry.

I'm impressed you can load a Leica in the dark though I've only got Barnacks and M2s.

I dont know how to link posts, but the problem there is not the same one here.

I have three leica Ms. One is an MP, the problem has surfaced from all three. I can tell which is which is which from the small variances in the field stop (film gate) and have seen it on all three. I mentioned the MP specifically because its a brand new camera with no problems of leaking whatsoever.

I do use ilford factory loaded cassettes only.

I like to use Tri-x in the summer, but in the winter Hp5 pushes to 1600 better than any other film for the cheapest price, its a very good film, so its my winter film, becoming my main overall film, but
I have never seen it on anything but HP5.

The M4, M4-P and MP all have the quick load, once you do it a thousand times it just kind of happens. I get barnacks on and off, I should just keep one, I recently got a IIf again that is out for a CLA, theyre a little slower to load, but I like the camera as a system you can pocket

I think its narrowed down to, something in processing, factory defect, or cassette defect, I will be processing again tonight and using different tanks to see if the problem reoccurs. Although sometimes it dosent occur at all in my tanks, and like I said it will occur typically on only one roll of 4 loaded into one tank. The lid is completely foolproof baffled.

Nikanon · Nov 10, 2015

winger said:
The look of the marks, to me, looks like the edge of how liquids can adhere to the reel and to the film due to surface tension and cohesion/adhesion. If the reels are not perfectly, absolutely, completely dry, a very small amount of liquid could be blocking the developer action as it starts in those areas. The film may be slightly pulling away from the reel due to agitation and that would leave the sharp edges and odd patterns (edges of bubbles, sorta).

Hm. I was thinking something along this line too, but looking at the marks I couldnt quite figure it out. It occured in such a random way I was wondering if maybe it had to do something with bubbling, but my developing method has never changed and wouldnt it occur on other films? Although I was wondering if maybe it has something to do with HP5, maybe the coating or the base of the film and how water adheres... im really not sure. The biggest wonder is the strange patters and how specific and sharp the edges are inside the "artifact" area, could be the work of a bubble, but I just cant figure out how this would happen.

Xmas · Nov 10, 2015

Nikanon said:
I dont know how to link posts, but the problem there is not the same one here.

I have three leica Ms. One is an MP, the problem has surfaced from all three. I can tell which is which is which from the small variances in the field stop (film gate) and have seen it on all three. I mentioned the MP specifically because its a brand new camera with no problems of leaking whatsoever.

I do use ilford factory loaded cassettes only.

I like to use Tri-x in the summer, but in the winter Hp5 pushes to 1600 better than any other film for the cheapest price, its a very good film, so its my winter film, becoming my main overall film, but
I have never seen it on anything but HP5.

The M4, M4-P and MP all have the quick load, once you do it a thousand times it just kind of happens. I get barnacks on and off, I should just keep one, I recently got a IIf again that is out for a CLA, theyre a little slower to load, but I like the camera as a system you can pocket

I think its narrowed down to, something in processing, factory defect, or cassette defect, I will be processing again tonight and using different tanks to see if the problem reoccurs. Although sometimes it dosent occur at all in my tanks, and like I said it will occur typically on only one roll of 4 loaded into one tank. The lid is completely foolproof baffled.

Ok don't understand that.
My Patterson's aren't completely leak proof but the leakage is not patterned and only occurs on the top most rebate of a tank as uniform fogging.

Otherwise my HP5s (and other films) have clear rebates except where the emulsion is touching spiral edges.

I don't see how one could get the pattern by either physical stress or chemical contamination.

cliveh · Nov 10, 2015

Can you describe your film processing MO?

Nikanon · Nov 10, 2015

Xmas said:
Ok don't understand that.
My Patterson's aren't completely leak proof but the leakage is not patterned and only occurs on the top most rebate of a tank as uniform fogging.

Otherwise my HP5s (and other films) have clear rebates except where the emulsion is touching spiral edges.

I don't see how one could get the pattern by either physical stress or chemical contamination.

Chemical contamination in some way, (perhaps some form of dichroic fog even) can create some very interesting shapes indeed.

Xmas · Nov 11, 2015

Nikanon said:
Chemical contamination in some way, (perhaps some form of dichroic fog even) can create some very interesting shapes indeed.

Sorry no the pattern and variability in (along) your samples says light leak.
It is a slight leak eg my Patterson tanks can be worse.
No one else has reported and you have repeats long term says not Ilford.

Because I use different lenses on my Ms it would be difficult to identify which film had been in which M.

The pattern is very strange but (through) sprocket shaft leaks are typical in rangefinders but I've not seen one symmetric top to bottom of shaft, top of camera only ie bottom of picture are more typical.

Shoot Tx is a simple penance, inspect rebates carefully, hope some one else gets it soon or Ilford put hand up.

If it was their finishing machine it would be on all their film eg Kentmere 400, Delta 3200, which would be similar in density, I shoot a lot of Kentmere too no similar symptoms.

Europan · Nov 11, 2015

To me it’s light and it happened on a perforator.

You have the four-hole pattern typical of intermittent perforators, you have a sort of catacaustic from a light source that flashed up briefly. Maybe an operator fumbled around with a torch light and that got reflected onto the film by the punches and pilot pins.

Xmas · Nov 11, 2015

You never turn on a flash light on a dark room.
If you did the at risk film would need quarantine.
The fault repeats frequently for the OP.
No one else has reported it.
The finishing machine might have a strange fault when printing rebates but I'd have expected that would not occur between perforations and cause mayhem on all Ilford 35mm film.

AgX · Nov 11, 2015

Europan said:
To me it’s light and it happened on a perforator.

You have the four-hole pattern typical of intermittent perforators, you have a sort of catacaustic from a light source that flashed up briefly. Maybe an operator fumbled around with a torch light and that got reflected onto the film by the punches and pilot pins.

With stray light it needs a lot of imagination on light path and tool-form to explain the sharp edges.
It does not explain the 3rd photo.

Nikanon · Nov 11, 2015

AgX said:
With stray light it needs a lot of imagination on light path and tool-form to explain the sharp edges.
It does not explain the 3rd photo.

Agreed. I think it is chemical for mostly this reason.

I did another test last night, developed with plastic reels, two in two tanks with varying ages of Ilford HP5 (shot between 12-2 months ago), and there were no marks whatsoever.

I developed then in my two metal tanks which hold four reels, and I placed in all four but only loaded three to find out if the issue had to do with insufficient agitation from not having enough room to do so, one has a metal lid one has a plastic one. The one with the metal lid had no issue at all varying ages of HP5 and even one that was not stored in a cansiter like I normally do to rule out any issue of moisture.

The plastic lid tank however did show two rolls that had the marks, greatly reduced from before, but oddly enough they were on the top and bottom reel of the three, and not the middle reel. The marks did not extend into the frame, but appeared at the same random intervals. I have quarantined those two reels and will try again with two different ones.

Im wondering if it has to do something with a chemical reaction with the reel or tank itself?

Strange marks in sprocket holes, ONLY on HP5??

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