Strange iridescence, from b/w negative, deterioration?

sionnac · Feb 10, 2020

Hello collective wisdom,
I'm working with a collection of prints, some 19th century, this is an image I think may have been contact printed from an original b/w 4x5 film negative. The paper is thin, no backprint, and the image is discolored a dark copper-orange with lots of iridescence under fluorescent light. Is this an error in printing/fixing? Here is a link to a positive image of the negative, https://haverhill.pastperfectonline.com/photo/F35254D0-F090-4AAB-9E7F-462406369652
below is a picture of the print in question, also 4x5".

Kino · Feb 10, 2020

Others will probably have a better guess, but I would guess it is POP (Printing out paper) that was not quite fixed properly and is starting to sliver-out. There may even be some sort of varnish on the image...

sionnac · Feb 10, 2020

Thanks Kino, according to this I bet it's a gelatin POP proof print - often left unprocessed - see http://graphicsatlas.org/identification/?process_id=104#variations

AgX · Feb 10, 2020

Kino said:
Others will probably have a better guess, but I would guess it is POP (Printing out paper) that was not quite fixed properly and is starting to sliver-out. There may even be some sort of varnish on the image...

sionnac said:
Thanks Kino, according to this I bet it's a gelatin POP proof print - often left unprocessed - see http://graphicsatlas.org/identification/?process_id=104#variations

The photo shown obviously was taken in the 20th century, how can it be POP?

sionnac · Feb 10, 2020

Could someone have made their own POP? It's super thin and not coated on the back. I know the photo is mid 20th century. If a proof print was made with mid 20th century paper would it iridesce if not fixed?

Luckless · Feb 10, 2020

AgX said:
The photo shown obviously was taken in the 20th century, how can it be POP?

"Gelatin printing-out papers continued to have a niche market, first as studio proof paper and later used by fine art photographers and continued to be manufactured until late 2000s."

While its common usage may have waned over a century ago at this point, it doesn't sound like commercial availability is really all that far in the past.

removed account4 · Feb 10, 2020

chicago albumen works sold their POP until the 2000s, and then after it was bought by kentmere and became unavailable someone in ny state was selling something similar. no idea if "historically" pop was sold with silver nitrate on the side, but if so, maybe the paper was self coated. i know when one bought the collodion pop paper from the guy in ny state he included some silver nitrate to coat the paper before using it.
something else to think about there were lots of proofing papers sold over the years, like azo and vellux.
there were some that required fluorescent light to expose. maybe it is a proof paper. from personal experience, azo can sometimes have a greenish tone when developed in regular dektol and it isn't selenium toned, and there are lots of weird toners people use/used...
could it be silvering out and/or dichroic fog?
dichroic fog looks like a weird iridescent metallic stain when seen on film, no idea if it is possible to get it on paper,
and silvering out looks shiny and metallic and happens to prints if they are stored in conditions the prints don't like.

Ballinderry-Michael · Feb 10, 2020

I was able to buy fresh POP around 2007 and finally used it up a couple of years ago. The OP's image certainly looks like POP, maybe compromised by some kind of toning effort (or just poor storage).

AgX · Feb 10, 2020

I forgot that only outside the anglo-american world POP is considered (photo-textbooks/-encyclopedia) dead for at least 100 years.

Peter Schrager · Feb 12, 2020

AgX said:
I forgot that only outside the anglo-american world POP is considered (photo-textbooks/-encyclopedia) dead for at least 100 years.

Time to rewrite the textbooks

AgX · Feb 12, 2020

Textbooks were written by authors having their and their readers' environment in mind. In this case Europe. And of course I am influenced by that perspective.

And US textbooks, or rather non-German textbooks were practically non-existant in West-Germany.

BAC1967 · Feb 13, 2020

It looks similar to something that happens to poorly made black and white movie prints. I’ve heard it called Redox, it’s attributed to poor rinsing after the fix. I have a few commercially made black and white 8mm movies with the orange spots. As I understand it there’s not much you can do about it.

AgX · Feb 13, 2020

In the eyes of archivists I am a philistine when I say that I actully like the look of that sample.

koraks · Feb 14, 2020

AgX said:
In the eyes of archivists I am a philistine when I say that I actully like the look of that sample.

Yeah, it has something to it.

I concur it's a poorly fixed print, or perhaps not fixed at all entirely.

BAC1967 said:
I’ve heard it called Redox

Perhaps a reference to the chemical term redox reaction; reduction/oxidation. 'Analog' photography is basically an almost endless string of redox reactions, right from emulsion making up to the deterioration of prints & negs.

Strange iridescence, from b/w negative, deterioration?

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Strange iridescence, from b/w negative, deterioration?

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