Storing XTOL in Wine Bladders

[Dave in Kansas]

In the past I've used various wine and beer bottles for storing XTOL, but have decided to try wine bladders after reading that others use them and it should be a more efficient way to store and dispense only enough for proper replenishment.

A few days ago I visited the local wine making shop and bought a package of 3 -1.8L wine bladders for a little under $14.00, plus a plastic dispenser to hold the bladders. In the box was a sheet of paper that said the bladders can be rinsed out and reused, but should not be reused more than one time because the oxygen barrier breaks down. So I'm wondering why that happens and if others have noticed that they must replace their bladders after using a couple of times. They don't cost much so it isn't a big deal but I'm just wondering why the oxygen barrier would break down and if that is a problem when used for storing developer or only when used for storing wine. Maybe the alcohol goes to work on it?

Dave

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I've used them and I have XTOL stored for 7 months and it's just fine. I think the bladders have to be HDPE (High Density Polyropylene). APUGers told me that regular Polyropylene is gas permeable which can allow oxygen into your developer. I'm sure there's an APUGer that knows more than I do about this thread. Best of luck!

 

[mablo]

I'm sorry if I ask something obvious but how do you get the liquid back into a wine bladder?

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

The one that I have it's from a 3 liter box of wine. The bladder that I have the spigot didn't screw off. I turned the spigot and and pulled it out. Here's a link to my post about it on last July.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Rick A]

One mouthful at a time, and spit it in. Just remove the spigot and colapse the blader, using a funnel, pour slowly and it will go in.

 

[pentaxuser]

I don't know for sure but suspect that the bags which are silvered might be better in terms of being air impermeable. Unless you don't like wine I'd simply buy a 3L wine carton with dispenser, drink the contents and then remove dispenser, flush out and refill with developer.

In the U.K you can buy 5L bladders with holder at "home brew" shops which might be more convenient if you use Xtol. Assuming of course that such bladders are available in the U.S.

pentaxuser

 

[Oxleyroad]

Dave I used to successfully use wine bladders for storing all my darkroom chemistry. The main reason I used them was I could mix up a batch of solution, pour into the bladder with a funnel and put the tap back on and squeeze out the air. Found that I could get about 18 months out of a bladder before the chemicals would interfere with the integrity of the inner lining which once leaking very quickly destroyed the silver barrier layer.

Here in Australia we have wine bladders from 2litres to 20litres. The larger is typically used by commercial businesses. I stopped using wine bladders because I now use PET soft drink (soda) bottles as they serve the same function and are easier for me to obtain at no cost.

18 months use was not storage time, but emptied and refilled several times over that period.

 

[Dave in Kansas]

Thanks for the replies. The spigots on the bladders I bought are about 1 inch in diameter and pull out so they should be easy to fill. I seriously thought about buying one precharged with wine, but then had the question "How am I going to drink that much wine so quickly?" since I hope to mix my Xtol in the next couple of days. My wife doesn't drink so I would have to consume it all rather quickly. I don't like to waste.

I am just surprised to learn the bladders don't last for many fillings.

I've thought about using soda bottles, but still wonder how to get all the air out of partially filled bottles. The wine bladders seem like a slick trick if I replenish with only 70ml each time.

Dave

 

[Rick A]

I've thought about using soda bottles, but still wonder how to get all the air out of partially filled bottles. The wine bladders seem like a slick trick if I replenish with only 70ml each time.

Dave

I use a variety of size bottles, from 2 liter down to 250ml, its a matter of decanting to smaller bottles as you use it up. I use the smaller bottles first, then refill from the 2L when they are all empty. I have some nice square 500ml bottles for my Jobo(Fiji water). Some Ilford chems come in 500ml bottles, recycle those as well.

 

[pentaxuser]

.

I am just surprised to learn the bladders don't last for many fillings.

Dave

Yes I am surprised also. I wonder what it is in dev/fix that causes a deterioration in the bags?

Does it depend on which dev? Does Xtol contain ingredients that will do this? What about fix?

Anyone know?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Tony-S]

I seriously thought about buying one precharged with wine, but then had the question "How am I going to drink that much wine so quickly?"

C'mon, man-up. You liver can take it!

 

[Yamaotoko]

C'mon, man-up. You liver can take it!

Haha! I use bladders for both my Xtol and Bromophen, I use 'pre-loved' bladders with out a hitch (other than double vision...)

 

[Dave in Kansas]

Yes I am surprised also. I wonder what it is in dev/fix that causes a deterioration in the bags?

Does it depend on which dev? Does Xtol contain ingredients that will do this? What about fix?

The caution about not reusing the wine bladders more than one time assumes the bladders will be used for wine, which is what most people use them for, especially since they are sold in a wine making shop. Maybe the alcohol attacks the oxygen barrier and maybe developer won't do that so quickly.

I've thought about using a variety of 8oz or 250ml bottles and larger but I don't want any partially filled bottles. Since only 70ml is needed to replinish, the remaining developer should go into something smaller, and I don't know what that would be. I haven't found water or beer bottles less than 8oz.

Dave

 

[MattKing]

I would surmise that the concern with re-using the bladders may be related to physical stress as much as anything.

 

[MattKing]

The caution about not reusing the wine bladders more than one time assumes the bladders will be used for wine, which is what most people use them for, especially since they are sold in a wine making shop. Maybe the alcohol attacks the oxygen barrier and maybe developer won't do that so quickly.

I've thought about using a variety of 8oz or 250ml bottles and larger but I don't want any partially filled bottles. Since only 70ml is needed to replinish, the remaining developer should go into something smaller, and I don't know what that would be. I haven't found water or beer bottles less than 8oz.

Dave

The bottles that are sold as "air travel friendly" come in a variety of sizes, right down to about 2 oz/60 ml.

 

[BetterSense]

I've been reusing the same 5L box-wine bladder for years. I just keep taping over the label and re-labeling it; judging by the thickness of the tape it's been refilled at least 6 times.

I used to prefer the silvered ones, but I can't find those anymore. I figure if the normal ones keep wine for a year or more, they must be good enough to keep developer. At any rate my Xtol lasts a good year in the wine box.

 

[bblhed]

If you are that worried about the containers why not use them until your nerve runs out then fill them with used chemical for disposal? Two disposal problems solved at once.

 

[Neal]

Dear Dave,

If you're not using the Xtol up in the time it would take for it to go bad in a bladder with a few uses, you're not shooting enough film.

Neal Wydra

 

[Dave in Kansas]

I'll admit that I don't shoot enough film, but that isn't because I don't want too. It's just the way things work out sometimes. Right now I'm thinking about a vacation (alone) where I'll have the opportunity to go through a quite a bit of film. My interest in the wine bladders is because I want an efficient way to store and dispense Xtol that will keep it fresh as long as possible.

Dave