Storing X-tol

baachitraka · Jul 24, 2015

I have plenty of such glass bottles,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Glasflasche-...25?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item41784ee391

Can I store x-tol in them? What color does it take when x-tol goes bad?

RowanBloemhof · Jul 24, 2015

I think glass is your best option yeah. I've tried PET bottles without much success. As far as i know though Xtol doesn't necessarily change color upon turning bad. The best way to check if its still good is to cut off a small strip of film. and throwing it in a bit of xtol. Then checking after a few minutes if it turns dark. Id suggest google'ing on "Xtol sudden death". Its a widely documented issue.

Arvee · Jul 24, 2015

Glass bottles are best and of the proper volume so you can keep air space to a minimum. I use 125 ml boston rounds along with 250s and 500s in a decanting scheme to be able to always fill to the top. But water quality is equally important as my Xtol still deteriorates in glass bottles after 3-4 months because of iron content.

bdial · Jul 24, 2015

There are lots of threads about storing X-tol. As stated glass is best, I use a combination of glass and plastic. That is, my working solution is in plastic and I keep the replenishment stock in glass. I mix it with distilled water, and I've gone a year + in storage. I also shift the replenishment stock to smaller bottles as I use it and any air space is flooded with inert gas (nitrogen in my case).
With X-tol you can't judge whether it's good by color. The bottles you reference should work well.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 24, 2015

X-tol can lose activity without changing color. Because of this it is always smart to do a snip test. PET bottles are almost as good as glass. As far as aerial oxidation is concerned X-tol is similar to D-76. However when ascorbate developers fail it can be from the Fenton reaction and in this case the choice of bottles is of no importance.

baachitraka · Jul 24, 2015

I may mix x-tol powder directly into 5l can of distilled water and pour the mix immediately into 1l glass bottles.

1l glass bottle which I will mark as Xt will be the developer and remaining 4x1l bottles will be the replenisher with marking R.

It may be that developer will be full, without air gaps at any time but I wonder about the air gaps in the replenisher.

I do not have an accordion bottle...

bdial · Jul 24, 2015

baachitraka said:
...
I do not have an accordion bottle...

That's ok, you don't want or need one.

(IMO, and that of many others. They are hard to clean, introduce more space for air and contaminants compared to a standard bottle, and when I tried them they were not effective at excluding air. Maybe they've improved, but hard to clean is still an issue, and they are expensive compared to the alternatives.)

Arvee · Jul 24, 2015

I believe most accordion bottles are gas permeable and are a poor choice for storing developing solutions.

pentaxuser · Jul 24, 2015

baachitraka said:
It may be that developer will be full, without air gaps at any time but I wonder about the air gaps in the replenisher.

I do not have an accordion bottle...

Try winebags. My Xtol is now 23 months old and still works fine although I check it each time with a film leader as already suggested.

If the wine bag is full before replacing the dispenser then it cannot have any air gaps. The bag collapses under external air pressure as the Xtol is poured out.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jul 24, 2015

The wine bag needs to be the mylar type, not the transparent plastic type that some boxed wines come in.

baachitraka · Jul 24, 2015

http://www.amazon.de/Relags-Bota-Or...8&qid=1437754573&sr=8-5&keywords=Weinschlauch

http://www.amazon.de/Laken-Leder-Wa...&qid=1437754573&sr=8-10&keywords=Weinschlauch

That said, the inside layer is made up of Polyethylen.

pentaxuser · Jul 24, 2015

MattKing said:
The wine bag needs to be the mylar type, not the transparent plastic type that some boxed wines come in.

Based on my experience most if not all wine bags were once of the mylar type but in recent years many now seem to be the transparent type. What is it about the transparent plastic type that in your experience gives a problem and how does this manifest itself?

Thanks

pentaxuser

rbultman · Jul 24, 2015

baachitraka said:
I may mix x-tol powder directly into 5l can of distilled water and pour the mix immediately into 1l glass bottles...

This is essentially what I do except I use the plastic Delta 1L bottles. No issues with my current batch mixed in September of last year. Partially full bottles are fine even for several months.

I have never experienced XTOL death, but after having a different developer fail on me, I always do a snip test at the start of each developing session. It only takes a few minutes

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

MattKing · Jul 24, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Based on my experience most if not all wine bags were once of the mylar type but in recent years many now seem to be the transparent type. What is it about the transparent plastic type that in your experience gives a problem and how does this manifest itself?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I have friends who tried the transparent type and experienced problems with developer oxidizing.

It may be that there is variation in the oxygen permeability of the transparent types.

pentaxuser · Jul 24, 2015

MattKing said:
I have friends who tried the transparent type and experienced problems with developer oxidizing.

It may be that there is variation in the oxygen permeability of the transparent types.

Thanks for the quick reply which may also help the OP. This could be important given the tendency for the use of transparent bags. Can you say for how long the transparent bags worked compared to the mylar? Certainly the wine manufacturers' guarantee on the boxes for the wine's stability is for a lot less time than I have used my winebag (mylar) for Xtol. A figure of 3 months guarantee for the wine's freshness springs to mind and it maybe that the transparent bags last this long with a few weeks to spare so if it is cheaper material than mylar then them why bother with mylar?

It then becomes a question of how many swallows make a summer in the sense of how many reported problems with transparent bags constitute a statistically significant amount of failures that can only be attributable to a change of material.

It would be interesting to hear of others' experience with transparent bags although I fear we have too few users of winebags in total to draw meaningful conclusions

To be on the safe side I'll try to buy wine in mylar bags in the future. Each bag will no doubt wear out eventually although I have used each mylar bag several times without problems

pentaxuser

AlexMalm01 · Jul 24, 2015

I store xtol in a tank with a floating lid to reduce oxidation. Here's a link to the tank although i think you have to buy the floating lid separately.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/88372-REG/Doran_Plastic_Storage_Tank_2.html

It has been good at 6 months, but at the rate I process film I haven't had to test beyond that timeframe. And since the xtol packaging lists expiration after 6 months with a floating lid I don't plan on pushing my luck anyway.

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Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 24, 2015

I use the bladder from this wine box. Works great. I've been using them for years.

http://winekick.com/blog/2013/3/30/trader-joes-b-red-shiraz-review

pentaxuser · Jul 25, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I use the bladder from this wine box. Works great. I've been using them for years.

http://winekick.com/blog/2013/3/30/trader-joes-b-red-shiraz-review

Is this a silvered mylar type? I couldn't see anything on the link to indicate. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has used a transparent bag with success and without oxidisation for say over a year.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 25, 2015

Nope

pentaxuser said:
Is this a silvered mylar type? I couldn't see anything on the link to indicate. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has used a transparent bag with success and without oxidisation for say over a year.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Trader Joe's wine box wine use milky white plastic for the bladders. I think they're polypropylene.

pentaxuser · Jul 25, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Trader Joe's wine box wine use milky white plastic for the bladders. I think they're polypropylene.

Thanks. So how long have you been able to keep any one quantity of Xtol in Trader Joe's bags without problems?

I suspect that all the bags without a silvered appearance might be of the polypropylene kind and I am trying to find out what period of use you get with one fill of Xtol.

pentaxuser

craigclu · Jul 25, 2015

Some years back, I read of someone having longer storage life with their Xtol stock being mixed to a higher concentration. I mix my Xtol into 1 gallon of distilled water in a glass thumb jug, gently rolling the jug back and forth to avoid aeration. I then decant to small brown bottles, topped up as much as possible. I have a spreadsheet-generated grid posted in my darkroom (attached) with the various stock amounts to convert to standard (as if mixed at 5L) 1:0, 1:1, 1:2 and 1:3 for the tank sizes that I use. I've had great luck with this over the years and find it much easier than wrestling with methods to accomplish 5L batches. I like Xtol but it's not my main go-to soup and the extended shelf life for my usage patterns works well for me (I've never suffered a fail to this point).

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 25, 2015

I use replenished XTOL

pentaxuser said:
Thanks. So how long have you been able to keep any one quantity of Xtol in Trader Joe's bags without problems?

I suspect that all the bags without a silvered appearance might be of the polypropylene kind and I am trying to find out what period of use you get with one fill of Xtol.

pentaxuser

I store the working solution in a polypropylene jug. The replenisher which is just plain XTOL is stored in the bladders. I replenish 50ml per roll from solution from the bladder. After 6 months from starting from a fresh batch of working solution, the negs I process get slightly under developed. I don't know whether my working solution is under replenished or my replenisher is getting slightly weak.

Sirius Glass · Jul 25, 2015

I have used accordion bottles for XTOL but some of them leak air over time. I stole XTOL in the one liter Jobo bottles and one accordion bottle. I use XTOL replenished so any partial quantities are stored in the one 1 liter accordion bottle.

MattKing · Jul 25, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I store the working solution in a polypropylene jug. The replenisher which is just plain XTOL is stored in the bladders. I replenish 50ml per roll from solution from the bladder. After 6 months from starting from a fresh batch of working solution, the negs I process get slightly under developed. I don't know whether my working solution is under replenished or my replenisher is getting slightly weak.

50 ml is 20 ml less than Kodak recommends, so you might get better results if you increased the amount.

Sirius Glass · Jul 25, 2015

I replenish 70ml per 36 exposure 35mm roll or 120 roll or four 4"x5" film sheets.

Storing X-tol

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