Stopping Prints Before Fixing with Tf-5 without running water

DowntownDan · Jun 21, 2023

Hi all,

I use TF-5 for both film and paper and usually use a running water stop, but for reasons too tedious to enumerate, I recently lost light-tight running water and am running my trays in a blackout tent.

Without rubbing water, what’s the appropriate procedure for stopping prints prior to fixing with TF-5?

Do I just add time to the water stop? Agitate more vigorously? Split in into two trays and just move from one to the other halfway through?

Would I need to change the tray water for every print? Every 2-3 prints? Would it help to switch to a more dilute or slower working developer?

I assume that with RC it would be less critical than fB as it’s easier to rinse off the developer?

Any help is much appreciated.

Dan

BHuij · Jun 21, 2023

I've been using a regular old tray of water for stop bath in between developer and TF-5 for more than a year now, without any issues. Granted, I usually print in small batches (rarely more than 4 or so 8x10s in one darkroom session), and I also use a two-bath setup with TF-5, so at worst I'm only contaminating my first bath of TF-5. But I don't think you need to have running water. I just "stop" development for RC paper for 30 seconds, or fiber paper for a minute before moving to fixer. I agitate normally.

faberryman · Jun 21, 2023

I use stop bath. Stop bath vs. water is a highly contentious issue.

BHuij · Jun 21, 2023

To be clear, I used stop bath before I switched to TF-5. The instructions for TF-5 explicitly state that you should not use an acidic stop bath prior to fixing, and say that plain water is best.

faberryman · Jun 21, 2023

BHuij said:
To be clear, I used stop bath before I switched to TF-5. The instructions for TF-5 explicitly state that you should not use an acidic stop bath prior to fixing, and say that plain water is best.

The instructions for TF-5 state:

1- Develop the print as usual.
2- Drain.
3- Rinse in running water at 68° F for 30 seconds, with continuous agitation.
As an alternate, you may prefer to use an acid stop bath.
4- Drain.
5- Place the resin-coated print in the TF-5 fixer for 30 seconds, or fiber-base prints
for 1 minute.
6- Drain and immediately place in a tray containing 68° F running water.
7- Wash fiber-based papers for at least 15 minutes - up to 25 minutes. Wash resin
coated papers at least 3 minutes - up to 5

Here's the link:

https://www.freestylephoto.com/static/pdf/product_pdf/formulary/Photographer%27s_Formulary_TF-5_Rapid_Fixer_Instructions.pdf

Since running water is not available to the OP, using stop bath would be an alternative with TF-5, at least according to the instructions.

And now, let the battle begin.

GregY · Jun 21, 2023

Like faberryman, I use a stop bath (glacial acetic acid) for prints with TF-4/TF-5. I use a waterbath only when processing film. Pyrocat HD, water stop bath, TF-4/TF-5 fix.

BHuij · Jun 21, 2023

You're right, I misread the instructions and overstated the downsides of stop bath.

Not particularly interested in getting into a religious argument about this. Everyone should find a process that works for them, and it seems there are many right answers when it comes to develop/stop/fix methodologies and chemistry. For what it's worth to the OP, I have never used running water or acidic stop for my prints prior to fixing in TF-5, only a tray of regular old tap water. I have not had any issues, and believe that my prints are fixed to completion.

My understanding has always been that the primary advantage of acidic stop bath is that without it, you're slowly increasing the pH of your traditional, acidic sodium thiosulfate fixer by contaminating it with alkaline developer, which reduces its effective lifespan and can therefore lead to incomplete fixing and prints destined to deteriorate sooner than a properly fixed print would have.

As soon as your fixer is neutral in pH, like TF-5, and doesn't need to be acidic in order to work properly, the acidic stop bath loses what I believe to be its primary advantage. That said, I don't really know what bad thing might happen if TF-5 becomes slightly alkaline as a result of minor contamination with developer. My half gallon batches of TF-5 get cycled through a two-bath system, and the "first bath" bottle gets discarded and replaced by the "second bath" bottle after 20 8x10s or the equivalent.

I guess if my prints are all silvering in 60 years from now, we'll know that I really should have been using an acidic stop bath ;D

George Collier · Jun 21, 2023

I agree with BHuij here - "As soon as your fixer is neutral in pH, like TF-5, and doesn't need to be acidic in order to work properly, the acidic stop bath loses what I believe to be its primary advantage."
I use a generous size tray deep with plain water, then TF5 double tray scheme. It takes a bit longer for the development process to stop, granted, with a plain water stop, but if you make your judgements under white light after fixation (as you should - a whole nother discussion) then you will soon accommodate the difference in the slow stopping of developer.

faberryman · Jun 21, 2023

Rather than have everyone repeat what they have said countless times over the years, here is a link to the stop bath vs. water thread that was started in 2004 and continues active today:

Stop Bath.. How important?

Water Vs. stop bath and film development In the last couple of months, I've seen odd density variations in my Plus-X and FP4+. On the long edges of each frame is a subtle area of increased density which runs the lenght of the frame. I develop in a steel tank with steel reels of course...

www.photrio.com

Spoiler alert: there is still disagreement, so do whatever you feel best.

koraks · Jun 21, 2023

BHuij said:
I don't really know what bad thing might happen if TF-5 becomes slightly alkaline as a result of minor contamination with developer.

You'll get staining. I don't think it's due to the alkalinity, but due to the developer itself.

I'm pretty use TF5 is buffered quite strongly, so using an acid stop bath won't hurt it much unless it's used beyond its stated capacity.

Or, as @faberryman pointed out: consider relying on the instructions.

Sirius Glass · Jun 21, 2023

koraks said:
You'll get staining. I don't think it's due to the alkalinity, but due to the developer itself.

I'm pretty use TF5 is buffered quite strongly, so using an acid stop bath won't hurt it much unless it's used beyond its stated capacity.

Or, as @faberryman pointed out: consider relying on the instructions.

When all else fails, RTFM!

GregY · Jun 21, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
When all else fails, RTFM!

Men don't need instructions (sorry...don't read....)

Sirius Glass · Jun 21, 2023

GregY said:
Men don't need instructions (sorry...don't read....)

REAL men don't need instructions

MattKing · Jun 21, 2023

FWIW, the late Photo Engineer (aka Ron Mowrey) posted here on more than one occasion that TF-5 was co-designed by him to be strongly buffered, in order to be fully usable with acid stop baths, which in turn he recommended people use.

john_s · Jun 21, 2023

koraks said:
You'll get staining. I don't think it's due to the alkalinity, but due to the developer itself.

......

+1

If you're worried about a little acid, maybe take the "middle path" and use a weak acid stop rather than just water. I had the staining experience until I changed to acid stop.

MarkS · Jun 21, 2023

When printing, I use a dilute citric acid stop bath with TF-5 fixer. No stains on my prints, no nasty aromas, and the fixer lasts as along as it did when I used water for a stop bath.

DREW WILEY · Jun 21, 2023

With both film and paper, I use a very mild acetic acid stop bath per either TF4 or TF5. No problems. I never re-use any solution, but dump it at the end of the daily work session. A plain water "stop" doesn't work well at all with certain papers I use. I need the real deal.

DowntownDan · Jun 22, 2023

Thank you so much, everyone. I guess I’m going to try it both ways and see what gets better results—deep tray of still water with a two bath fix, or mild citric acid stop (working in a small tent ATM, so could do without the powerful vinegar smell. The ammonia smell is bad enough.

BHuij · Jun 22, 2023

Okay y'all convinced me. I had a bunch of Kodak Indicator stop bath anyway, so I just mixed up a weak (1:100) solution of it to replace my water stop for printing. I haven't seen any staining in my printing anyway, but this seems like best practice.

GregY · Jun 22, 2023

BHuij said:
Okay y'all convinced me. I had a bunch of Kodak Indicator stop bath anyway, so I just mixed up a weak (1:100) solution of it to replace my water stop for printing. I haven't seen any staining in my printing anyway, but this seems like best practice.

I also prefer the immediacy of the stop bath compared to letting the print continue to develop in the tray of water. At least it gives me the sense of better control.

Tom Taylor · Jun 22, 2023

Years back I used a water stop. The water would gradually turn yellow from the developer (Dektol) which to me meant that the stop was now a weak developer, and I would toss it and refill with fresh water. I have since switched to a citric acid stop - 1 tbsp/liter of distilled water - which last for the entire session with no discoloration.

Doremus Scudder · Jun 22, 2023

MattKing said:
FWIW, the late Photo Engineer (aka Ron Mowrey) posted here on more than one occasion that TF-5 was co-designed by him to be strongly buffered, in order to be fully usable with acid stop baths, which in turn he recommended people use.

john_s said:
+1

If you're worried about a little acid, maybe take the "middle path" and use a weak acid stop rather than just water. I had the staining experience until I changed to acid stop.

DREW WILEY said:
With both film and paper, I use a very mild acetic acid stop bath per either TF4 or TF5. No problems. I never re-use any solution, but dump it at the end of the daily work session. A plain water "stop" doesn't work well at all with certain papers I use. I need the real deal.

There are your answers

A tray of Kodak Indicator Stop Bath mixed half-strength lasts quite a long time. You will be sure the developer is neutralized and not have any unpleasant surprises from active developer being carried over to the fix. The TF-5 is buffered more than enough to work to capacity.

Best,

Doremus

DREW WILEY · Jun 22, 2023

I said, "very mild". If I use Indicator Stop Bath, which I do for film only, I dilute it the color of pale piss - barely yellow. It never goes to exhaustion, or the litmus dye in it would turn purple. And I toss it afterwards. For prints, either b&w or color, I just use a few ml of stronger, more economical to use glacial acetic acid per tray or drum - probably less than 1/4 %. It does the job for the session. I have no intention to re-use it.

GregY · Jun 22, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
I said, "very mild". If I use Indicator Stop Bath, which I do for film only, I dilute it the color of pale piss - barely yellow. It never goes to exhaustion, or the litmus dye in it would turn purple. And I toss it afterwards. For prints, either b&w or color, I just use a few ml of stronger, more economical to use glacial acetic acid per tray or drum - probably less than 1/4 %. It does the job for the session. I have no intention to re-use it.

Likewise!

john_s · Jun 22, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
.......... The TF-5 is buffered more than enough to work to capacity.

Best,

Doremus

And it wouldn't matter much it it wasn't so well buffered. Within quite a wide range, the pH of fixer doesn't affect its fixing ability. Around neutral has the advantage of washing out better, but countless perfect prints are made with acidic fixer, and have been for a long time.

Stopping Prints Before Fixing with Tf-5 without running water

DowntownDan

BHuij

faberryman

BHuij

faberryman

GregY

BHuij

George Collier

faberryman

Stop Bath.. How important?

koraks

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Sirius Glass

GregY

Sirius Glass

MattKing

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john_s

MarkS

DREW WILEY

DowntownDan

BHuij

GregY

Tom Taylor

Doremus Scudder

DREW WILEY

GregY

john_s

Stopping Prints Before Fixing with Tf-5 without running water

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