Stopper & Fixer confusion

Jessestr · Mar 31, 2014

Hello

I'm a little bit confused about the stopper & fixer times.
Using Amaloco stopper & fixer. I usually take 1 minute for a stop bath. For fixer I dilute 1+7 and fix for about 5 minutes. (That's whats I found on the internet).

I have some questions about this.

How long can I reuse the fixer and stopper?
Does the time affect the process? Like if I fix negatives for an about an hour;. Will they still be okay?
Does the stopper or fixer change the look of film, like developers do?

Then for the last thing; I'm shooting Tri-X 400 at box speed, developing for 9 minutes in XTOL, but I feel I still have too much grain, what could it be?
As I see other pictures of Tri-X 400 with XTOL that are much cleaner. Just some test shots from my last roll.

mfohl · Mar 31, 2014

Here are my comments.

You don't need to leave the film in the stop bath for that long. I usually leave it in for about 15 seconds. It doesn't directly affect the image, it only stops the developer from continuing the development process. When that is stopped, it's stopped. If you have Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, it will turn pinkish then purplish when it is exhausted. I read something else that a liter of stop is good for about 100 rolls (35 mm or 120).

Fixer is a little different. All the unexposed silver needs to be removed. If you don't remove it, it will be exposed when the film is exposed to the light, and it will slowly develop itself, even though you don't put the film into any more chemicals. I leave my Tri-X in the fixer for about 5 minutes. I have taken my film out of the fixer after 5 minutes, and I have seen an unusual amount of gray in the clear areas of the film. That means the fixer is exhausted. You can then mix new fixer and refix; that works for me. Also, after a long period, fixer will stain. This is more prevalent with paper than with film, but the principal is the same. That's why you have to wash thoroughly and/or use a hypo clearing agent after fixing. If I recall, a liter of fixer is also good for about 100 rolls.

Hope this helps,

-- Mark

Xmas · Mar 31, 2014

The stop is to reduce the carry over of developer into the fix bath it is a misnomer.

Faucet water tempered and agitated for more then one minute will do instead of an acid bath.

The fixer has instructions on the bottle ignore web gossip note like developer it is time and temperature sensitive.

The wash cycle like the fix is critical for long term permenance of the negative. It to is temperature dependent.

Google for Ilford and Kodak datasheets for the films you use and their home processing descriptions.

Web gossip is frequently bad.

Note you can mix up fixer from raw chemical (or chemicals) and after 3 minutes in fixer fix by inspection. When the film stops being milky fix for as long again

winger · Mar 31, 2014

You have good answers for the first part already.
As far as the grain goes - you might be underexposing by a little. Try a roll with bracketed shots - as metered plus a stop over and a stop under, maybe even two stops over the metered. Develop the way you have been and compare the results. It would help to compare them magnified on a light table or printed optically rather than letting the scanner software do things to "optimize" the scan (you don't want electronics thinking for you in this case).

MattKing · Mar 31, 2014

How is your Dutch?: http://www.amaloco.nl/amal_nl_x55_x89.htm

Even using the Google Translate feature, I cannot determine if the capacity instructions say that the 100 rolls per litre figure given refers to 1 litre of concentrate or one litre of working strength solution, but I would think that it probably refers to the concentrate.

So 125 ml mixed 1 + 7 should do about 12 rolls of film.

You should do a clip test with freshly mixed working strength fixer. Put a small drop of the fixer on to a scrap of film, and leave it there for two minutes or so. Then immerse the scrap of film in to 100 ml or so of fixer and start timing. Agitate regularly. When the film is clear and you cannot see where the drop was, the time elapsed is your clearing time. Note that time on your bottle. Use the fixer for your film, and return it afterwards to the same bottle.

Fix Tri-X for at least two times the clearing time. I fix T-Max films for three times the clearing time.

I check my clearing time just about every time I fix film. It gets longer and longer as I use the fixer. When the clearing time is twice the original, I recycle the used fixer and mix up some more.

pdeeh · Mar 31, 2014

Xmas said:
The stop is to reduce the carry over of developer into the fix bath it is a misnomer.

I've seen you say this in another thread, but it is surely far from a misnomer?

Almost without exception, film and paper developers require an alkali solution to work.

Placing the film or paper in an acid solution is intended to quite literally "stop development" isn't it?

Avoiding "carry over" is a fortunate side-effect, and assumes one uses an acid fixer, I suppose.

Jessestr · Mar 31, 2014

winger said:
You have good answers for the first part already.
As far as the grain goes - you might be underexposing by a little. Try a roll with bracketed shots - as metered plus a stop over and a stop under, maybe even two stops over the metered. Develop the way you have been and compare the results. It would help to compare them magnified on a light table or printed optically rather than letting the scanner software do things to "optimize" the scan (you don't want electronics thinking for you in this case).

Well I just do like I do my other work (models) and it goes to my film lab in Spain. They tell me the exposures are perfect, and I don't have much grain to those pictures (www.jessestr.be)
They develop with HC-110

MattKing said:
How is your Dutch?: http://www.amaloco.nl/amal_nl_x55_x89.htm

Even using the Google Translate feature, I cannot determine if the capacity instructions say that the 100 rolls per litre figure given refers to 1 litre of concentrate or one litre of working strength solution, but I would think that it probably refers to the concentrate.

So 125 ml mixed 1 + 7 should do about 12 rolls of film.

You should do a clip test with freshly mixed working strength fixer. Put a small drop of the fixer on to a scrap of film, and leave it there for two minutes or so. Then immerse the scrap of film in to 100 ml or so of fixer and start timing. Agitate regularly. When the film is clear and you cannot see where the drop was, the time elapsed is your clearing time. Note that time on your bottle. Use the fixer for your film, and return it afterwards to the same bottle.

Fix Tri-X for at least two times the clearing time. I fix T-Max films for three times the clearing time.

I check my clearing time just about every time I fix film. It gets longer and longer as I use the fixer. When the clearing time is twice the original, I recycle the used fixer and mix up some more.

Luckily my dutch is perfect, as I'm Belgian haha Will check the datasheet. Thanks for the tip.

L Gebhardt · Mar 31, 2014

mfohl said:
If I recall, a liter of fixer is also good for about 100 rolls.

Most fixers I have used claim about 15 rolls per liter. You don't want to exceed that by much for archival processing of the film.

Edit: That's 15 rolls per liter of working strength fixer.

Xmas · Mar 31, 2014

pdeeh said:
I've seen you say this in another thread, but it is surely far from a misnomer?

Almost without exception, film and paper developers require an alkali solution to work.

Placing the film or paper in an acid solution is intended to quite literally "stop development" isn't it?

Avoiding "carry over" is a fortunate side-effect, and assumes one uses an acid fixer, I suppose.

With film if you pour out the developer and fill the tank with water and agitate and pour out the water the tank and the film won't retain a high pH but if you were worried you could use two changes of water.

With some non prehardened films an acid stop bath risks emulsion damage.

With prints and some print developers an acid stop is necessary to avoid stains...

Cause I do use non prehardened film ocassionally I don't keep acid stop in film area as water is o.k.

And I use plain hypo bath A bath B I do keep the solids for acid fix but Ive not noticed any difference so I don't use. Over use of fixer is bad when bath A slows it goes in the silver recycling tank.

Some people used an alkaline bath after development deliberately to get more silver in shadows. So a 'stop' bath is not just unnecessary... it may be undesirable.

see two bath in Barry's site

http://www.barrythornton.com/

winger · Mar 31, 2014

Jessestr said:
Well I just do like I do my other work (models) and it goes to my film lab in Spain. They tell me the exposures are perfect, and I don't have much grain to those pictures (www.jessestr.be)
They develop with HC-110

Well, the two developers will not necessarily give you the same result grain and speed-wise. With HC110, you might be getting more speed out of the TriX than you are with XTOL. When you use a different developer, you should figure out the optimal way to expose based on that workflow. If you like what you get with HC110, then I'd suggest to switch to that.

Jessestr · Mar 31, 2014

winger said:
Well, the two developers will not necessarily give you the same result grain and speed-wise. With HC110, you might be getting more speed out of the TriX than you are with XTOL. When you use a different developer, you should figure out the optimal way to expose based on that workflow. If you like what you get with HC110, then I'd suggest to switch to that.

What do you mean by "getting more speed out of a film". I never understood what people ment by it. They say Rodinal loses speed on high speed film and XTOL gives speed.. I don't really understand.
I was going to buy HC-110 pretty soon.

L Gebhardt · Mar 31, 2014

Jessestr said:
What do you mean by "getting more speed out of a film". I never understood what people ment by it. They say Rodinal loses speed on high speed film and XTOL gives speed.. I don't really understand.
I was going to buy HC-110 pretty soon.

The speed of film that is printed on the box is determined using a standard developer and process as defined by a standards organization. But the speed of the film can vary based on the developer. Some give a higher speed than others. Also the contrast you develop the film to affects the speed.

Dr Croubie · Mar 31, 2014

I've never understood that either, but I've been working it out a bit. Does the following sound correct?

I've just shot some APX100 at EI100, and I read here the other day that APX100 in Perceptol has a 'real' EI of 32.
But in a 'regular' developer it might have an EI of 100, and in a 'fast' developer like microphen it might have an EI of 150 or 200.
So to calculate these numbers, is it something like taking a calibrated step-wedge and seeing what EI delivers the same range and contrast?
Does that mean that if I develop in perceptol for the EI100 times on MDC, that I'm technically 'pushing' it from EI32 to EI100 and increasing the contrast?
Similarly, if I develop it in microphen I'm 'pulling' it from EI200 to EI100 and reducing contrast?

Jessestr · Mar 31, 2014

L Gebhardt said:
The speed of film that is printed on the box is determined using a standard developer and process as defined by a standards organization. But the speed of the film can vary based on the developer. Some give a higher speed than others. Also the contrast you develop the film to affects the speed.

So what are the advantages of a speed gaining developer? Grain goes down? And the disadvantages? More contrast?

Xmas · Mar 31, 2014

Microphen gives 1/3 of a stop speed increase over dk76. There is a stop safety factor in ISO box speed.

More than that the neg is difficult to print.

L Gebhardt · Mar 31, 2014

Jessestr said:
So what are the advantages of a speed gaining developer? Grain goes down? And the disadvantages? More contrast?

The main advantage of a speed gaining developer is that you can get higher shutter speeds for the same aperture. This gives you move ability to stop action or hand hold the camera in dimmer light.

You need to compare film speeds when the films are all developed to the same contrast. If you look at this Kodak chart you can see how different developers compare in three areas, shadow detail (think film speed), grain, and sharpness. It's rare to find a developer that is strong across the board. XTOL probably comes closest. HC110 is fairly well balanced which is one reason labs use it, so I've been told.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/prof...wFilmProcessing/selecting.jhtml?pq-path=14053

L Gebhardt · Mar 31, 2014

Xmas said:
Microphen gives 1/3 of a stop speed increase over dk76. There is a stop safety factor in ISO box speed.

More than that the neg is difficult to print.

I don't find there to be a stop safety factor in the ISO box speed. In fact I find the ISO to be inflated by a full stop with most films and developers. In other words I get ideal results at half box speed. For example I shoot FP4+ at 64 when developed in XTOL, and 50 when developed with Pyrocat HD or HC110.

L Gebhardt · Mar 31, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
I've never understood that either, but I've been working it out a bit. Does the following sound correct?

I've just shot some APX100 at EI100, and I read here the other day that APX100 in Perceptol has a 'real' EI of 32.
But in a 'regular' developer it might have an EI of 100, and in a 'fast' developer like microphen it might have an EI of 150 or 200.
So to calculate these numbers, is it something like taking a calibrated step-wedge and seeing what EI delivers the same range and contrast?
Does that mean that if I develop in perceptol for the EI100 times on MDC, that I'm technically 'pushing' it from EI32 to EI100 and increasing the contrast?
Similarly, if I develop it in microphen I'm 'pulling' it from EI200 to EI100 and reducing contrast?

Yes, using a step wedge is an easy and common way to test film speed and development. You can also do it by taking careful notes using a spot meter. Or just bracketing a normal contrast scene and seeing which speeds have proper shadow details.

If you expose a film for less time than it's ideal exposure (EI32 exposed at 100 in your example) and develop it normally you have just under exposed it. If you increase the development time to increase the speed at the expense of increased exposure you have pushed it.

Keep in mind that with multiple paper grades (or scanning) that there is a range of acceptable film contrast. As such there is a range of film speed and development times that will give technically similar results.

pdeeh · Apr 1, 2014

Xmas said:
With film ... [snip]a 'stop' bath is not just unnecessary... it may be undesirable.

I don't dispute anything you say in your clarification, but nevertheless saying a stop bath is not entirely necessary and saying "stop bath is a misnomer" are two quite different things, and an unwary beginner might get hold of the wrong end of the stick from the latter formulation

Xmas · Apr 1, 2014

pdeeh said:
I don't dispute anything you say in your clarification, but nevertheless saying a stop bath is not entirely necessary and saying "stop bath is a misnomer" are two quite different things, and an unwary beginner might get hold of the wrong end of the stick from the latter formulation

maybe but

Beginners should read the Kodak and Ilford training and film data sheets.

If you are not a physical or organic chemist major. You then need to follow the instructions.

If you are using a carbonate film developer rather than a Borax then an acid stop needs to be dilute. Id be cautious with Rodinal too.

If the film is not prehardened the box should say only use a dilute acid stop, less than 1.5% acetic acid, some do.

If the film is not prehardened then hold all temps to 1C. difference, no prebath, overly cautious maybe.

Plain water stop is safest option, a dilute borax post bath might improve shadows.

Ansell Adams and Barry Thorton did use post baths for a while, more meaningful than uprating, like the latest fashion, IMHO, but YMMV.

Shootar401 · Apr 3, 2014

I toss my film in a stop bath for about a minute. Same temp at the developer

I fix anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes depending on what else I'm doing in the darkroom at the moment. Unlike developer you can leave your film in the fix without any issues for quite a while. It's also not dependent on being at a certain temp so I just fix at room temp. Thats usually 60-70 degrees or as low as 55 in the winter (I develop in my basement)

Pat Erson · Apr 3, 2014

Fixers won't work properly below 15° Celsius... (59° F) so you'd better be careful...

I too process in my basement but I warm my fixer to 20° C with the help of... my microwave oven.

TheToadMen · Apr 3, 2014

Hi Jesse,
Just wanted to say: welcome to the APUG forum, neighbor.
There is also a good developer from Dead Link Removed. I used it a lot with Tri-X and had no grain problems.
Enjoy your Leica M6!
Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

Stopper & Fixer confusion

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