Stop Using Stop? - Pinhole Frustrations

I know there are are a few threads on this, but I coudn't find exactly what I was after by doing a search.
Pinholes are starting to frustrate me more. I have always used acid stop bath. Last week I developed a 120 roll of Retro 400 and about five of the frames contained pinholes, mostly very small, but one in the shape of a small flower. I've always subscribed to the belief that the acid is needed to virtually instantly stop the development, and I am wary of just using a water stop, as in my understanding that would allow development to continue, although at a reduced rate. I use the standard Ilford stop bath, diluted 1+19. Should I dilute it further still, just use a water stop, or what else? All ideas very welcome - thanks.

Using a water stop does work but it's a bit of a faff-5 rinses should do it.The Film Developing Cookbook (Anchell & Troop) has some good info. Alternatively, you could use a brief water rinse in between dev & stop or a dev that doesn't contain carbonate.

Kevin Caulfield said:

I have always used acid stop bath.

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Drop stop. How about one-shot fixer? I suggest you try 20ml
of your ammonium thiosulfate fixer concentrate added to what
ever solution volume needed. I think the ph will be within
safe bounds. Allow up to ten minutes then put it down
the drain. Less time may do. You'll need to do some
testing. Then fresh fixer for the next roll.

If you'd like a recommendation for sodium thiosulfate
let me know. Dan

I no longer use acid for either film or prints. I agitate like crazy with film (in tank or sheet film in trays, and replace the water in the stop bath tray fairly frequently when printing. I have noticed no difference in film or print results.

Yup, fixer probably dies a quicker death, but I dump it after each printing session anyway. Film fixer I save, but not for as long as I used to.

What puzzles me is this *DRIVE* to INSTANTLY stop development! What the #$%^# is the difference between 9 minutes 50 seconds and 10 minutes 10 seconds, in terms of density, shadow detail or ... whatever?

Over the course of many moons in the darkroom, developing various films, with various developers, including C-41 and E-6 processing, I have made sundry "spontaneous experiments" and I have *never* ruined any film, or even seen any difference, with that sort of error.

I do NOT use an acidic, or non-acidic OR water rinse in film development. If you choose to ... FINE with me! I can only say that in the last ten years - or so - I can count the number of pinholes I've seen on one hand.

You could switch to a milder acid. Try ascorbic acid instead of the acetic.

The C41, E6 and RA processes were designed to be run with no stop. Even so, Kodak suggests a stop if you see stains or uneven development. I use a stop for the RA process.

The B&W processes were designed for use with a stop bath for the most part. I don't see how an acid stop can cause pinholes with film. There has been one verified case of pinholes in a B&W product with a carbonate developer and a deep tank processor. I have documented this before. Otherwise, if there is a problem it shows up as blisters or scales, not pin holes.

You don't specify your developer, but unless it contains carbonate, it is unlikely to generate any gas at all, and even if it does, it is unlikely that it generates pinholes.

It has been shown that carryover of alkaline developer into a fix bath can lead to more staining of film and paper, and since a wash does not really do the job in neutralizing developers, it is inadequate to substitute for the stop.

In addition, that 10 or 15 seconds in the wash (rinse) that you say does no harm actually allows development to continue but under far different process conditions than in the developer. This can alter the image structure for that short time. This is why in rigorous research or in processes which are exact, a stop bath is used to insure the results are the same every time. Among other things, a stop evens out variations in water supply all over the world, by eliminating variables introduced by the rinse water.

PE

Listen to PE on this one. He's right on the money and the people I learned this stuff from wrote the textbooks about it.

StephenS said:

Listen to PE on this one. He's right on the money and the people I learned this stuff from wrote the textbooks about it.

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Steve, same here. I learned from Haist and James among others.

PE

So where does pinholes come from? I had the same problem, stop using stop, end of pinholes.

I have told our customers for years, "Stop bath is not necessary when you use our fixers because they are stop-fixes." I don't think that Ilfords' Stop, diluted 1+19, is the cause of pin holes. I would look to other causes such as dust on the film or a carbonate developer.

I don't remeber which emulsion because it was years ago, but I had problems with pinholes at one time. Quit using stop and quit having pinholes. Never noticed any difference in negative densities due to a possible longer dvelopment of a few seconds due to the change.

N O Mennescio said:

So where does pinholes come from? I had the same problem, stop using stop, end of pinholes.

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Pinholes are generally the result of small bubbles of air or small pieces of dust trapped on the surface of the film. In some cases, very soft films have bubbles of air actually entrained in the gelatin.

During processing these bubbles are on the surface of the film and prevent wetting by developer.

They cause minute spaces with no development.

This is why a pre-wet is very useful in preventing pinholes.

To demonstrate this, take a piece of scrap unprocessed film and pour out some tap water into a glass of water. Place the film in the water, and you see small dots of silvery bubbles form on the surface of the film. Tap the film against the side of the glass, and you see the bubbles merge or burst. This is the recommended action when processing film. Tap the processing drum or can sharply to dislodge those bubbles.

The amount of bubbles that form depends on the amount of air dissolved in the water, the roughness and hardness of the film, and the amount of air voids in the gelatin.

PE

N O Mennescio said:

So where does pinholes come from? I had the same problem, stop using stop, end of pinholes.

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This has pretty much been my experience also, although my process is to use a thorough water rinse before using a diluted stop. I regularly had pinholes and now the pinholes have gone away.

I can't argue with PE's chemistry, but I won't argue with my results.

FWIW, I've noticed it mostly on sheet film...both Ilford and Kodak.

Believe me when I say I'm no guru, but my 4X5 Delta 100 was riddled with pinholes and stopping use of acid has ended the problem. I, as well, can't see that the SLIGHT continuation of developement during water baths does anything adverse, might even help.

My advise is using a water bath before development in order to avoid bubles on the emulsion and a water stop bath to avoid formation of gaz.
Otherwise, if you are concerned with fixer duration, you can use an alcaline fixer like TF-4 (Photographers formulary).

dancqu said:

Drop stop. How about one-shot fixer? I suggest you try 20ml
of your ammonium thiosulfate fixer concentrate added to what
ever solution volume needed. I think the ph will be within
safe bounds. Allow up to ten minutes then put it down
the drain. Less time may do. You'll need to do some
testing. Then fresh fixer for the next roll.

If you'd like a recommendation for sodium thiosulfate
let me know. Dan

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This would be the best way I know to create chemical fogging. It is a risky process. Any active developer that is not neutalized will react with the fixer in a way that will result in chemical fogging. I've seen it. I've done it. And I would strongly discourage the procedure.

Well, based on all of the above, I can only say what I always say when there are differences of opinion.

Use what works for you.

PE

Pinholes

Photo Engineer said:

Well, based on all of the above, I can only say what I always say when there are differences of opinion.Use what works for you.PE

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What works for me is white vinegar @ 1 part vin and 15 parts water, never had a problem, it stops development, afterall we are not stopping tanks here.
Pat

Presoak - brings the film to the temp of the developer so developer temp remains more constant, removes most of the anti-halation coating so the developer doesn't have to, swells the gelatin and makes for more even initial development. If it helps elimintate bubbles too, fine.

I have always used a stop bath (mixed the way I was tought by people who know more than I ever hope to guess at) and have never experienced a problem with a pinhole or anything else.

I would suggest banging the tank on the edge of your counter or sink several times during each step of the development process to avoid airbubbles that can form at all stages of development due to liquids being dumped and then added to the tank. I've processed 1,000's of rolls and love to bang away those bubbles.

Please listen to PE on this one.

Thanks all. Your comments are much appreciated. The developer I usually use is Paterson FX-39. I do bang the tank at the end of every agitation cycle. Also, I do agree that the small amount of very slight development that may occur during the few seconds of a water bath will make very little difference in the overall scheme of things.

In the technical info sheet that comes with Efke, it says to not use an acid stop-I think to prevent pinholes. They suggest a water stop.

Ed Sukach said:

What puzzles me is this *DRIVE* to
INSTANTLY stop development!

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I used to be dumb. Probably also. There is a misconception
that acid makes a stop instant. Acetic acid molecules are
rather large. When compared with water molecules they
move slowly and have a shorter path.

Neutralization through dilution and dilution itself by the small,
swift, far traveling H2O molecule likely accounts for most of a
stop's stop. It's only logical.

The only reason for an ACID stop is to maintain the acidity
of an ACID fixer. Print developers in particular can be loaded
with alkali, usually carbonate. Ilford's and Kodak's short
recommended rinses don't wash clean by any means.
They do though give the film an overall acidic
character which carries through to the fix.

Me? I use all chemistry one-shot so do not bother. Dan

I have always used a water stop bath. I have never had any issue with with development times, pinholes, etc. My stop consists of two water baths, for both film, and paper, to help preserve the fixer.

Dan;

Just FYI, the diffusion of the hydrogen ion (the smallest ion of them all) is rapid. That is why a stop is fast!

An acid stop also prevents dichroic fog in fixes due to carryover of alkali in too great a quantity.

PE