Stop bath

[WolfTales]

Can I make a cheap, working, non damaging stop bath from super market shelf items? Maybe citric acid or vinegar? Any dilution suggestions?

I dislike indicator dyes in pre-made stuff and it is hard to order anything else without a dye in my situation.

Thanks

 

[rwboyer]

How about just using plain old water - works like a charm.

RB

 

[csant]

Can I make a cheap, working, non damaging stop bath from super market shelf items?

Water, as simple as that. Just keep in mind that development won't stop immediately, as with a "proper" stop bath, but quickly slow down and come to standstill because the developer gets diluted and washed away. I only use water, and never used anything else.

 

[rwboyer]

Water, as simple as that. Just keep in mind that development won't stop immediately, as with a "proper" stop bath, but quickly slow down and come to standstill because the developer gets diluted and washed away. I only use water, and never used anything else.

Wow. I wish I would have thought of that. Amazing.

RB

 

[Bob-D659]

5% vinegar diluted 1:1 with water works fine ,so does citric acid, but you'll have to find the mix ratio yourself.

What's to dislike about the indicator dye? At least you will know when it turns to the equiv of water.


BTW water doesn't work when processing RA4 prints in drums, you end up with streaky prints.

 

[MikeSeb]

Wow. I wish I would have thought of that. Amazing.

RB

Sarcasm as an educational tool. I wish I would have thought of that. Amazing.

Robert, maybe you should find a forum to frequent where everyone is as smart as you. Spare yourself the soilage by contact with filthy beginners, and such.

 

[rwboyer]

Sarcasm as an educational tool. I wish I would have thought of that. Amazing.

Robert, maybe you should find a forum to frequent where everyone is as smart as you. Spare yourself the soilage by contact with filthy beginners, and such.

Hey no bad blood guy - let the changing bag thing go. I actually enjoy healthy debate and love to hear different ways of doing things that I happen to do them. Especially when they are accompanied with rationale.

RB

Ps. You might not want to use sarcasm when you are criticizing sarcasm.

 

[WolfTales]

I sometimes get a yellowish tint on fiber with an indicator if I fail to wash properly. The paper.

Or if I use dilutions that are too strong.

I was hoping that less variables would give me less headaches. Although dill pickles are nice.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak still recommends stop bath for both film and paper.

If you use vinegar, use white (distilled) vinegar, not the brown stuff. Don't use wine vinegar either.

If you must use water, use running water. I have heard more tales of woe from those who use just a plain standing water bath.

PE

 

[eddie]

It's my understanding that, when using water instead of stop bath, the fixer doesn't last as long.
Is it true?

 

[rwboyer]

It's my understanding that, when using water instead of stop bath, the fixer doesn't last as long.
Is it true?

It might be true for acid fixers but is the opposite for alkaline fixers.

RB

 

[rwboyer]

Kodak still recommends stop bath for both film and paper.

If you use vinegar, use white (distilled) vinegar, not the brown stuff. Don't use wine vinegar either.

If you must use water, use running water. I have heard more tales of woe from those who use just a plain standing water bath.

PE

Curious PE,

I use a couple different ways of using water depending on what process I am using. I am assuming that you are referring to uneven development horror stories or something. I have to assume that that is developer dependent - I have never had issues with water running or standing.

RB

 

[Photo Engineer]

Let me expand on my post and answer posts #11 and #12.

In the case of a standing water bath.....

An alkaline fixer gradually becomes a monobath as the pH goes up due to carryover developer. This causes fogging of film. As pH goes up, the alkaline fixer loses strength. As the pH goes up, swell goes up and the emulsion gets softer. TF-4 is the only one I have seen with enough buffer to pretty much eliminate the pH change, but being alkaline it still allows development with enough developer carryover.

With acid fixes, if they contain hardener, the hardening effect decreases and a precipitate can form in the fixer or the coating. Since an acid fix was designed to be acid, the rate of fixing changes as pH goes up. Swell goes up, but it depends on the fixer type as to what happens with enough carryover. If the pH goes past 7 onto the alkaline side, the fix becomes a monobath again.

I have seen people use both acid and alkaline fixes and a standing water bath, and they have ended up with fogged paper or film by incomplete fixation or by turning on the lights before fixation was completed, or by just continuing development in the fixer. Sometimes they even get severe dichroic fog. I have demonstrated this to myself in my darkroom just to verify it.

PE

 

[rwboyer]

Let me expand on my post and answer posts #11 and #12.

In the case of a standing water bath.....

An alkaline fixer gradually becomes a monobath as the pH goes up due to carryover developer. This causes fogging of film. As pH goes up, the alkaline fixer loses strength. As the pH goes up, swell goes up and the emulsion gets softer. TF-4 is the only one I have seen with enough buffer to pretty much eliminate the pH change, but being alkaline it still allows development with enough developer carryover.

With acid fixes, if they contain hardener, the hardening effect decreases and a precipitate can form in the fixer or the coating. Since an acid fix was designed to be acid, the rate of fixing changes as pH goes up. Swell goes up, but it depends on the fixer type as to what happens with enough carryover. If the pH goes past 7 onto the alkaline side, the fix becomes a monobath again.

I have seen people use both acid and alkaline fixes and a standing water bath, and they have ended up with fogged paper or film by incomplete fixation or by turning on the lights before fixation was completed, or by just continuing development in the fixer. Sometimes they even get severe dichroic fog. I have demonstrated this to myself in my darkroom just to verify it.

PE

Makes sense - In the case of roll film I use running water - In the case of prints I use running water - In the case of sheet film I use standing water but I guess the volume I use and agitation method combined with the dilutions I use have not have the effect that you describe but I can see how it could be an issue with sloppy process/stronger developer/not enough water.

RB

Ps. I use TF4 as well but I doubt it would matter due to other factors in my process.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

Don`t use water in RA4 in any processor. Nova slot gives stained borders, cyan stain.

Works with film and monochrome paper in trays

 

[Neal]

Dear WolfTales,

Good news! There is no reason you should be having issues with indicator stop bath. I simply can't believe that you are incapable of diluting it following the instructions on the package. Yellowing of your paper is almost certainly due to something other than your stop bath. I occasionally get some stains when I work in a community darkroom and so far (knock on wood) the issues cleared up after everything got a good cleaning.

Neal Wydra

 

[WolfTales]

Nope - pretty sure my yellowing was caused from excessive amounts of stop bath with indicator dye.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, the indicator dye is totally removable by washing. I've never had problems with it even with color paper.

I've used it for about 60 years. I think that is a good track record.

PE

 

[WolfTales]

I used 2 ozs for 1 liter, when Kodak recommends 2 ozs in a gallon. That's 3.785 times more then recommended.

The paper cleared up after a good rinse, I just would rather know there isn't any residue left inside of fiber paper.

 

[Bob-D659]

I would suspect the 8-10% acetic acid content more than the indicator.

 

[BetterSense]

Last time I checked, vinegar wasn't any cheaper than stop bath, and doesn't have the nice dye in it. I thought I was being cheap but I wasn't.

 

[cbphoto]

Let me expand on my post and answer posts #11 and #12.

In the case of a standing water bath.....

An alkaline fixer gradually becomes a monobath as the pH goes up due to carryover developer. This causes fogging of film. As pH goes up, the alkaline fixer loses strength. As the pH goes up, swell goes up and the emulsion gets softer. TF-4 is the only one I have seen with enough buffer to pretty much eliminate the pH change, but being alkaline it still allows development with enough developer carryover.

With acid fixes, if they contain hardener, the hardening effect decreases and a precipitate can form in the fixer or the coating. Since an acid fix was designed to be acid, the rate of fixing changes as pH goes up. Swell goes up, but it depends on the fixer type as to what happens with enough carryover. If the pH goes past 7 onto the alkaline side, the fix becomes a monobath again.

I have seen people use both acid and alkaline fixes and a standing water bath, and they have ended up with fogged paper or film by incomplete fixation or by turning on the lights before fixation was completed, or by just continuing development in the fixer. Sometimes they even get severe dichroic fog. I have demonstrated this to myself in my darkroom just to verify it.

PE

This fogging has happened to me. I do not have running water in my darkroom, and am using a three-slot processor with standing water in the middle (TF-4 at the end). Could I just dedicate the middle slot to another TF-4 bath and go straight from the developer to that first fix? What is the best setup for 3 slots using TF-4, or should I just go acidic and use stop bath?

 

[fotch]

I used 2 ozs for 1 liter, when Kodak recommends 2 ozs in a gallon. That's 3.785 times more then recommended.

The paper cleared up after a good rinse, I just would rather know there isn't any residue left inside of fiber paper.

May I ask "Why" ? Seems so logical to follow the manufacturers instructions.

 

[pentaxuser]

If you can obtain citric acid powder in large quantities and are willing to buy it this way then it would be cheap. No smell, no indicator and the powder should last indefinitely. I think there is an article or posts here on APUG but 15g per litre would be about right.

pentaxuser

 

[WolfTales]

I think I just experienced a brain-fart that nite. I must have read liters instead of gallons. Oh well.

The experience left me leary of dyes.