Stolen Leica M8 reappeared ....

analoguey

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Good luck. Marcello. It takes quite a bit of perseverance to follow up, commend you on it.

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Andy38

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mnemosyne said:
Yeah, I was wrong again, it was the other way round ... Anglo-Saxon countries have similar rules to Germany ... France and Italy are two examples of countries where a bona fide purchaser of stolen goods can become legal owner ...
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No, in France, a bona fide purchaser of stolen goods can't become legal owner ; he has to restitute goods and he may be prosecuted for negligence.
 

Dali

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Andy38 said:
No, in France, a bona fide purchaser of stolen goods can't become legal owner ; he has to restitute goods and he may be prosecuted for negligence.
Click to expand...

That's right.
 

Andy38

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This morning, I bought, in a garage sale ("vide-grenier" in France), a Nikon FT2 with a Micro-Nikkor 55 f3,5 for €5 ; all in working condition but very dusty, with perhaps some fungus in the lens.
The first thing I did, when I was at home, was to see in a database if this camera has not been stolen ; because I don't want to have problems with legal owner, if it's stolen.
 

mgb74

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RalphLambrecht said:
I feel better now for having spent the time to record all serial numbers of my equipment;had to do it for insurance purposses and keep it up-to-date on a regular basis;just taking pictures of it isn't good enough
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How do you "register" those serial numbers to establish that you had the equipment at a given point in time? For example, if you sent them to insurance company (and kept them up to date), the insurance company would presumably keep a record of the serial numbers and the date received. Or if you had an original bill of sale with serial number that could be validated.

So much of my equipment has been purchased from private parties that I should find a way to keep serial numbers in some sort of authenticated manner.
 
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wmike

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News....

from Leica Camera AG:

"Dear Mr. .....,
as promised, here is our feedback from our sales representative.

Mrs. ...., owner of .... Photo, assured us, that she tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price.
He refused her offer, even though she told him, that the camera was stolen and, if the police will come, he will loose money.
I'm very sorry, that I'm not able to give you better news.
So the only way to get the camera back is to use the help of the police.
Again, I'm sorry, that Leica can't help you now.
I will register the camera as a stolen product in our data base in the customer care.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards"

No words to say. No one.
 
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Regular Rod

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Get the police fully involved...!

RR
 

CatLABS

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A point should be made to Leica - that their official representative/dealer had sold a camera, after having been made aware that it was stolen.
This should at least raise some concern about that dealers integrity etc.,

As this sale was an auction on Ebay - sellers often are penalized by Ebay for ending auctions early, canceling sales and or backing out of a deal after the item already had bids on it, and i can see why the seller might not have wanted to do anything about this, outside of the actual money issue.

Easy jet is cheap - fly to the buyers home town - file a local police report with all documentation.
Is the buyer German?
 

analoguey

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While browsing on ebay.de recently, I read somewhere of German law mandating a certain warranty wrt sales? That said private sales are exempt.
I wonder if the same law would help.
Either ways, involving the police is seemingly the thing to do.

Isnt most of Europe connected easily via train/flights?

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miha

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It's not clear to me at what point was the dealer informed about the stolen camera by the OP. Before or after the sale?
 

benjiboy

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I've often wondered what proportion of goods offered for sale on auction sites are stolen, because when I managed photography shops a large proportion of equipment we were offered was stolen and I wouldn't myself or allow my staff to buy or part exchange anything unless the vendor had documentary proof that he was the legal owner otherwise the company could lay itself open to be charged with receiving stolen goods.
 
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wmike

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miha said:
It's not clear to me ....
Click to expand...

Many thanks for your contribution.

Just for your information:
1) The camera was stolen in Italy, April 2013
2) The camera was on sale on Ebay.de, July 2014. The offer was retired by the seller (an important german dealer) before the end. As to the offer, the camera could be sent everywhere in the world, except Italy (!!!)
3) I found the offer on the web (in Google cache), August 2014. The seller, ebay.de, Leica AG, IT Police, DE Police were informed immediatly.
4) The seller told me "we have bought the M8 during a photo stock exchange from a supplier present there and have resold them some time later with Ebay". The identities of supplier and customer are both protected by privacy (!!!).
5) I asked to the President of Leica Camera "why should I buy my next Leica in a Certified Leica Shop? I will have no more warranties of a garage sale...."
6) The dealer assured to Leica that he "tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price", but the customer refused the offer, even though now well informed that the camera was stolen (!!! a good camera but a crazy customer, I suppose...).
7) There is a valued Leica Dealer in Germany where you can buy a stolen Leica at the price of a "clear" one.
8) Buying/selling/trading stolen material is persecuted by law, in Italy, in Germany, everywhere.

:confused:

update:

9) I asked the german seller to pay me the same amount of money for the full property of the camera, including software, box and warranty certificate. Every problem will be solved and this should avoid any concern about dealer's and customer integrity.

Now waiting for a feedback...

Here is the camera
 

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Kirks518

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That's a good idea; clears the customer who bought it, clears the shop, and you are reimbursed for your loss. The only thing it doesn't do is help catch the bad guy...
 
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wmike

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Kirks518 said:
That's a good idea; clears the customer who bought it, clears the shop, and you are reimbursed for your loss. The only thing it doesn't do is help catch the bad guy...
Click to expand...

Here the answer, arrived just some minutes ago...

"Dear ....
our boss has tried everything to get back the camera of the customer. However, customer would like to keep it. Any more we cannot act. She informed of this also thus Leica. Now is left on our part not other more than to wait what happens on the part of the justice. Fact is we have bought the camera without knowledge that it was stolen. Only by you we got to know from it. To subordinate us we buy deliberately stolen product is absurd. Although we guilt are not in the theft we wanted to fetch back to you the product.
Best Regards"



As for me a so stupid customer lives only in the seller's mind: no one could accept to become officially a trader of stolen goods if there is the possibility to give back the camera to the seller being fully payed back! The camera serial number is tracked by Leica Customer Service and you know that - one day or the other - all the M8s will be on the way of Solms/Wetzlar. So, just a question of time (and then, what will happen? What will Leica Service do? Nothing? Would only remember to customer that his M8 is stolen?)
In my opinion, for the seller now is more convenient to keep the camera in the lowest drawer of the store, using it for spare parts...

Sorry - as for me - no more second hand Leicas from official Leica Dealers, as "Leica Dealer" means nothing.
The more red dots you have in the store, the most important you are in the market, so you are untouchable.
Waiting from Police....

It's incredible!
 
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miha

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wmike said:
Many thanks for your contribution.
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You are welcome As it appears the camera was sold to a naive buyer before the dealer was aware the camera was stolen.
I hope you get the camera back soon, which you likely will as the identity of the buyer should be known to the police by now.

p.s. is there a database of stolen Leicas?
 

Xmas

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I think in the UK the police impound the stolen property as evidence while they rebuild the history.
They have a loss or theft report and the referred goods and they will eventually return it to legal owner when the 'porridge' has been handed out.
If you find a camera in UK just hand it in and point out it has a serial number.
They will return it if it is unclaimed with a title certificate.
There are exceptions but these are arcane and very unlikely.


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/handling/
 
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Old-N-Feeble

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In the USA the bureaucrats would do nothing at all. Even if one agent cared enough to locate and confiscate the stolen property they would impound it until the thief is caught and prosecuted... which won't happen here... almost ever. Even if they did prosecute the thief the camera would be improperly stored in impound for many years and probably mistreated.

I wish you far better luck than you would have in my country. I hope eBay cares more about justice than they do a high-volume seller making them profits.
 

trythis

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Even if you get your gear back, its been abused in the mean time. Hopefully you do and hopefully without any abuse.
 

analoguey

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Have you considered writing to or written to the Leica higher-ups? (the absolute top - CEO, directors etc.,(

Its the 100th year of Leica, they might want to help you? (or the media might pay attention?)


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MattKing

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There are a lot of jurisdictions where legislation is in place that protects innocent purchasers who pay market value for items that end up being previously stolen.

Those provisions are often accompanied by legislation that puts a higher onus on businesses who regularly purchase used goods, or mechanisms that register ownership of moveable goods (think automobiles).

There are a bunch of economic arguments for favouring this. Not least of which is that it is relatively easy to insure against theft.

I feel for the OP though.
 
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wmike

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analoguey said:
Have you considered writing to or written to the Leica higher-ups? (the absolute top - CEO, directors etc.,)
Its the 100th year of Leica, they might want to help you? (or the media might pay attention?)
Click to expand...

For sure! I wrote to Mr Stefan Daniel that answered to my mail in a couple of minutes. So a Leica representative went to the store and the seller said that he tried to have the camera back from the customer, but the customer himself refused the offer, even if fully payed back.
I wonder if this story is true... the new owner of my M8 now knows that it was stolen, why should he keep it?
Leica suggest to ask help to the police, and I'm waiting news for Bundespolizei.

But what does it mean being "Leica Dealer" after 100 years? Nothing???

This game is lost...
 

miha

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wmike said:
But what does it mean being "Leica Dealer" after 100 years? Nothing???
Click to expand...
I'm still not quite sure... Did the dealer check the stolen Leicas database? Was your Leica already registered as stolen at the time the dealer got it in?

Sorry, not much help... I wish you get your camera back quickly.
 
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wmike

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miha said:
Did the dealer check the stolen Leicas database?
Click to expand...

Hi miha!
I do not know if the database of Leica stolen cameras is accessible to everyone.
As for me, Leica checks s/n of the equipment that needs to be serviced. But... in case a stolen camera comes in solms/wetzlar, what will happen? Does Leica refuse service? Does Leica call the real owner, the Police? As for me Leica will call the customer asking something like this "Dear customer, as for our files your equipment was stolen. So please press 1 for ignoring or 2 to repeat the same question."

 
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