Stolen Leica M8 reappeared ....

wmike · Sep 9, 2014

Good morning to the forum.

Just to say that my dear M8, stolen near Venice more than one year ago, magically reappeared on sale in the eb*y store of a valued german Leica Dealer.
I informed the seller, but M8 has already gone, sold to an happy (and probably unaware) customer, whose identity is protected by privacy.
As for the gentleman of Leica store the question is closed, but Police and Leica are obviously informed.

So, a message for the anonymous buyer: the camera is good, good shots!

Leica M8 chrome (s/n 3101428) with handgrip
Voigtlander 35mm 1.2 Nokton silver edition (s/n 9740281)

Regards
Marcello (Venice, Italy)

Xmas · Sep 9, 2014

Does the dealer not need to recompense you for the amount of the sale?

Otherwise eBay may treat it as not being described properly.

Had you told the local police and databased the serial numbers?

analoguey · Sep 9, 2014

ebay has a policy on stolen articles, right? I dont know the details of it, but I suppose they would penalise a seller or cancel a transaction?(maybe)

Good that you at least found it - how did you find it? Searched through all the Leicas, or did you have a search setup with the serial no?

AgX · Sep 9, 2014

wmike said:
I informed the seller, but M8 has already gone, sold to an happy (and probably unaware) customer, whose identity is protected by privacy.

I assume the legislation of the country is to be applied, where the very ebay platform the seller put the camera on is registered.

Though I find that outcome of buyer-protection weird.

ic-racer · Sep 9, 2014

Don't worry about it. Do you know that the M8 is a digital camera that looks like a film camera? So the thief was fooled.

removed account4 · Sep 9, 2014

i hope you contact ebay .. the seller knows it was stolen
and ebay should know as well what has happened.
they have a very strict policy about buying and selling
stolen items. i find it hard to believe the dealer just basically
shrugged his shoulders ..

mnemosyne · Sep 9, 2014

Was the S/N registered as stolen with Leica? If it indeed was a reputable Leica dealership I would expect them to x-check S/N for stolen goods before offering these for sale. IIRC Germany legislation is in favour of a bona fide purchaser ... Interesting question is if a professional dealer can be held responsible for acting recklessly when accepting such a valuable camera without exercising (what I would deem as) necessary caution by x-checking the S/N.

snapguy · Sep 9, 2014

odor

This whole deal stinks. A Leica dealer would not sell a stolen Leica if he knew that it was purloined. I suspect German laws are most strict on something like this.

AgX · Sep 9, 2014

mnemosyne said:
IIRC Germany legislation is in favour of a bona fide purchaser.

That does not apply on stolen goods. Even a bonafide buyer cannot acquire ownership on stolen goods. Though he should have entitlement on the seller for his damage. Don't know how the situation is in other countries.

j-dogg · Sep 9, 2014

My Canon A2 outfit got yanked last year, some fool decided to sell it on a Facebook page I happened to be a member of, I "made him an offer", got his info, called local police with my serial numbers and the police report and everything and he's in prison now for grand theft. Turns out he had a bunch of stolen Honda Civic parts too, it's a problem in that community.

mnemosyne · Sep 9, 2014

wmike said:
Good morning to the forum.

Just to say that my dear M8, stolen near Venice more than one year ago, magically reappeared on sale in the eb*y store of a valued german Leica Dealer.
I informed the seller, but M8 has already gone, sold to an happy (and probably unaware) customer, whose identity is protected by privacy.
As for the gentleman of Leica store the question is closed, but Police and Leica are obviously informed.

I just read up a bit about the legal situation in Germany and some interesting questions arose. The case for the dealer is far from "closed". Was the auction still active when you contacted the dealer? Did the sale happen after you informed the dealer? This could be seen as a strong indication that the dealer tried to "get rid off" the hot item quickly, because he would have been required to return the camera to you. He might have even faked a sale to avoid negative consequences for himself. If he indeed sold the camera after having been informed by you, it could bring the dealer into deep, deep shit. According to German law, a bona fide purchaser of stolen goods is protected from prosecution, but a bona fide purchaser, who later receives knowledge of the goods being stolen and tries to get rid of problem by selling them is legally treated no different like someone who has bought and sold the goods with full awareness of them being stolen. On the civil side, you have the right to demand the bona fide buyer to return the goods to you and the bona fide buyer in turn has the right to demand compensation of damage from the seller.

mnemosyne · Sep 9, 2014

AgX said:
That does not apply on stolen goods. Even a bonafide buyer cannot acquire ownership on stolen goods. Though he should have entitlement on the seller for his damage. Don't know how the situation is in other countries.

You are right, I stand corrected.

ciniframe · Sep 9, 2014

I know that in the 70's, when I worked for Altmans in Chicago we had to record the SN of all used cameras that we took in trade or bought. This list was sent to the police dept once a week I think, cannot remember exact details. This was well before internet databases and such like so everything was on paper.

AgX · Sep 9, 2014

AgX said:
That does not apply on stolen goods. In Germany even a bonafide buyer cannot acquire ownership on stolen goods. Though he should have entitlement on the seller for his damage. Don't know how the situation is in other countries.

EDIT:
I just learned that in Belgium a bonafide buyer indeed acquires ownership of stolen goods.
Thus both outcomes are possible.

But what if an item was stolen in one country and offered on a Ebay platform of another country with contradicting legislation ??

RalphLambrecht · Sep 9, 2014

I feel better now for having spent the time to record all serial numbers of my equipment;had to do it for insurance purposses and keep it up-to-date on a regular basis;just taking pictures of it isn't good enough

mnemosyne · Sep 9, 2014

AgX said:
EDIT:
I just learned that in Belgium a bonafide buyer indeed acquires ownership of stolen goods.
Thus both outcomes are possible.

But what if an item was stolen in one country and offered on a Ebay platform of another country with contradicting legislation ??

Germany is more the exception to the rule in this case, Anglo-Saxon countries are similar to Belgium, I think ... That being said, I have no idea how this cross border deals are handled legally, but from a practical point of view, the best prospect for the TO to get his camera back would probably be if the buyer indeed resides in Germany and can be made subject to a private legal action there. So, if the TO can prove original ownership of the camera and that it was stolen from him it should not be too difficult to start such action through a lawyer in Germany who could also make Ebay disclose the identity of the buyer. The dealer himself on the other side obviously has no interest in disclosing the identity of the buyer, because he knows that he might be held eligible for compensation in return, as soon as the good faith purchaser is indeed forced to return the camera to its legal owner.

BrianShaw · Sep 9, 2014

Not that it matters in this situation, but in the US I believe that the owner of stolen goods remains the owner no matter how many times it is bought and sold - no matter if the buyer or seller knows it is stolen or not. Once linked back to the original owner who lost it to a theft it is theirs... technically. That seems to put an unknowing buyer in a real pickle, so to speak. I suppose that makes the US more German than Anglo-Saxon in this respect?

mark · Sep 9, 2014

This is weird. So, OP's camera was stolen in Italy. It reappeared a year later in the hands of dealer in Germany. The OP contacted the dealer to say it was a stolen item, and the dealer basically said "SOL dude". That is just messed up.

mnemosyne · Sep 9, 2014

BrianShaw said:
Not that it matters in this situation, but in the US I believe that the owner of stolen goods remains the owner no matter how many times it is bought and sold - no matter if the buyer or seller knows it is stolen or not. Once linked back to the original owner who lost it to a theft it is theirs... technically. That seems to put an unknowing buyer in a real pickle, so to speak. I suppose that makes the US more German than Anglo-Saxon in this respect?

Yeah, I was wrong again, it was the other way round ... Anglo-Saxon countries have similar rules to Germany ... France and Italy are two examples of countries where a bona fide purchaser of stolen goods can become legal owner ...

BrianShaw · Sep 9, 2014

mnemosyne said:
Yeah, I was wrong again, it was the other way round ...

Don't worry about it; I'm somewhat dyslexic too.

resummerfield · Sep 9, 2014

j-dogg said:
My Canon A2 outfit got yanked last year, some fool decided to sell it on a Facebook page I happened to be a member of, I "made him an offer", got his info, called local police with my serial numbers and the police report and everything and he's in prison now for grand theft. Turns out he had a bunch of stolen Honda Civic parts too, it's a problem in that community.

Good job, j-dogg! I would do the same thing!

analoguey · Sep 9, 2014

I'm very surprised if countries allow stolen items new ownership - that would be abetting theft and more or less saying private ownership doesnt matter?
That sounds like a legal minefield!

Sent from Tap-a-talk

pdeeh · Sep 9, 2014

Well, quite.
Buy goods in the UK and if they are found to be stolen ... you won't have 'em for very much longer.
Happens all the time with cars. A very expensive mistake to make.

AgX · Sep 9, 2014

mark said:
This is weird. So, OP's camera was stolen in Italy. It reappeared a year later in the hands of dealer in Germany.

The camera was stolen in Italy. We don't know were it was sold for the last time. Probably either german or US Ebay.
And we don't know whether and were it was sold inbetween. Such sales also could influence the situation...

wmike · Sep 10, 2014

Many thanks for all your interesting contributions but, above all, for your support.
All the actors in the story are well informed, the last seller, german police, italian police and Leica. The thief and the actual owner are missing....
The seller said "sorry, it may happen", the last owner is anonymous to me (but will be not to the police), Leica and Ebay asked more informations.
So let's see what will happen in the next few days.

regards
marcello

Stolen Leica M8 reappeared ....

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